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Spec Miata Penske Shocks 2X Value

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On 1/10/2020 at 9:27 AM, ABR-Glen said:

I thought several years ago Mike stated that these written exceptions were only going to be honored from one year from the date they were written (presumably becasue they would be incorporated into the next version of the rules). So perhaps anything older than that doesn't really need to go through the tech desk (unless those old emails were still being accepted in tech?)

Emails older than a year will not be accepted so burn up the tech line up with your clarification request.  We will eventually get All the questions and interpretations into the knowledge base, but be patience it will take some time.

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15 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

 

I see, so if a component is cast iron and stock then it can be replaced with any other cast iron part to perform the same function for only 2 points.  So the stock Ford 5.0 can run any stock cast iron head E7/GT40/GT40P for only 2 points?  Seems to me Dart makes a stock replacement cast iron head as well for the 5.0, as per the Dart site, "Works with most standard components".

  NO   NO and NO   you do not see , do you just have nothing else to do but dream up stuff .  I have wasted enough time here y'all just continue to twist and turn this crap any way you see fit . To the few serious racers on here I apologize .

 

5 hours ago, mender said:

If you look on the tech sheet, there isn't a line to claim the type of flywheel/pressure plate/clutch disc.

 

No points isn't the same as not allowed, at least by Champcar rules.

 

 

To the ones that come on here daily with 100% negative spin on everything , as if someone is paying you to do so, try actually coming to a race .    Adios 

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Ron and I are here because we're serious racers. We have legitimate concerns that as past and likely future participants in races that cost us a lot of money to do we consider worth our time sorting out before we pay entry fees and hook up the trailer. 

 

Just a reminder, the two people you've quoted and slighted would make up 10% of the field in the average Champcar west coast race - if we decide it's worth going to. There is a very attractive alternative out here and certain attitudes make that alternative look even better. 

Edited by mender

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Honestly, the whole Ram's Horn thing probably needs to be revisited and added to the tech desk.

 

If it confers no advantage, then it should be no problem to just get rid of them.

If it does provide an advantage, it needs to be more than 2 points.

 

We pay 25 pts for 3 measly hp (exhaust header).  All engine points are expensive with good reason.

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4 hours ago, Ray Franck said:

  I cannot see how a stock 50 year old GM cast iron exhaust manifold would carry the same points as a performance tubular header, as it is just a different design and still cast iron . YOMV .

So where was this outlook when you were 100% adamant on giving us 48-points for a fiberglass hood that replaced our stock plastic composite hood? It added zero performance (which you conceded). It weighed the same as a gutted stock hood. It was just a different design and still a composite/fiberglass/plastic material. Two points for Ram's horn manifolds sure seems pretty interesting when headers are valued at 25-points. 

 

These are stock '87 V8 Camaro exhaust manifolds:

iQTRxI.jpg

These are not:

GayelQ.jpg

 

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6 minutes ago, Snorman said:

So where was this outlook when you were 100% adamant on giving us 48-points for a fiberglass hood that replaced our stock plastic composite hood? It added zero performance (which you conceded). It weighed the same as a gutted stock hood. It was just a different design and still a composite/fiberglass/plastic material. Two points for Ram's horn manifolds sure seems pretty interesting when headers are valued at 25-points. 

 

These are stock '87 V8 Camaro exhaust manifolds:

iQTRxI.jpg

These are not:

GayelQ.jpg

 

  This outlook was dead on track to make you pay points for a non stock , never on a street Mustang , hood just like the Camaro guys had been paying points for for years . 

   At least you could have made the other cast manifolds pretty before a comparable picture was taken .

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2 minutes ago, Ray Franck said:

  This outlook was dead on track to make you pay points for a non stock , never on a street Mustang , hood just like the Camaro guys had been paying points for for years . 

   At least you could have made the other cast manifolds pretty before a comparable picture was taken .

Okay, I can appreciate that. I didn't intend to post a bad pic of the IROC headers, just was the best I found. 

Also, AFAIK, Ram's horn manifolds never came on a 3rd Gen F-body. They won't clear the stock K-member. 

Here's a little better pic of those 3rd gen manifolds. Not many nice pics out there because they were so notoriously crappy I guess. 

9yzpxL.jpg

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3 hours ago, Ron_e said:

 

I see, so if a component is cast iron and stock then it can be replaced with any other cast iron part to perform the same function for only 2 points.  So the stock Ford 5.0 can run any stock cast iron head E7/GT40/GT40P for only 2 points?  Seems to me Dart makes a stock replacement cast iron head as well for the 5.0, as per the Dart site, "Works with most standard components".

How did you interpret the words manifold to mean cylinder head

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26 minutes ago, morganf said:

How did you interpret the words manifold to mean cylinder head

 

How did tech manage to misinterpret non oe manifolds are 25 points is the real question. 

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18 minutes ago, morganf said:

How did you interpret the words manifold to mean cylinder head

 

Rays says a stock OE cast iron component can be replaced with any other stock non-OE cast iron similar function component for two points despite that item being on the fixed value list.  Seems to be as long as it is a cast iron piece, cast iron seems to be very important, it just is, don't ask why.

 

In the case of the Camaro it is cast iron manifolds.  In my case cast iron heads.  How can the new rule be any different for one cast iron component on the fixed value list but not another cast iron component on the fixed value list?  Just to be fair.

 

Mix and match as you wish, as long as it is a stock cast iron component.  Perhaps the Dart's were taking it a bit far but if the Camaro can buy new Ram's Horn cast iron manifolds from Holley...

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12 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

 

Rays says a stock OE cast iron component can be replaced ....

He certainly said manifold then reiterated cast iron in reference to the manifold, but any way that's no longer valid as it's not listed in the book of rules nor the tech knowledge base.

Edited by morganf
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2 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

 

Rays says a stock OE cast iron component can be replaced with any other stock non-OE cast iron similar function component for two points despite that item being on the fixed value list.  Seems to be as long as it is a cast iron piece, cast iron seems to be very important, it just is, don't ask why.

 

In the case of the Camaro it is cast iron manifolds.  In my case cast iron heads.  How can the new rule be any different for one cast iron component on the fixed value list but not another cast iron component on the fixed value list?  Just to be fair.

 

Mix and match as you wish, as long as it is a stock cast iron component.  Perhaps the Dart's were taking it a bit far but if the Camaro can buy new Ram's Horn cast iron manifolds from Holley...

  Ray said NO SUCH THING . And I do not appreciate you twisting my words into what ever crazy idea you come up with . A stock GM cast iron exhaust manifold is not a header and it is not a head or crankshaft nor a transmission. I have to question your goal ?  If it is to make me mad I have to tell you I laugh at most of the bull cookies y'all come up with . How can you be SO FAR OFF .  Now I have defiantly had enough of this BS . And again I have to apologize to the real racers on here but for the clowns "use your imagination". 

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1 hour ago, Snake said:

 

How did tech manage to misinterpret non oe manifolds are 25 points is the real question. 

I had to recheck the rule, as I remembered it this way as well.

 

At least in the 2020 version, the words are “exhaust header - 25 points”
 

I thought the words were “non-oe manifold or header”. So Ray does have wiggle room here to assign a value other than 25 points. Now, how he came upon 2 points is completely beyond me. 

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2 minutes ago, Snake said:

 

 

4.7.6. Teams may replace any worn, broken, ventilated, impaled, defective, or bent-beyond-all- recognition parts on their car without affecting their total points so long as it’s an OEM or OEM- equivalent part for that car’s specific model.  

 

NON OEM is NON OEM, please learn the rule book you enforce.  The header you gave away for 2 points was NEVER available on that specific model.   YOU need to correct this at the next race or I will protest it. 

 

If you are going to sit there and try and justify 48 points hoods I will sit here and justify 25 point headers.... there's actually a rule for that. 

  Protest all you want it is not a header it is an OEM part not stock for that model and they were assigned points for it . 

  Fake News you were never given 48 points for your hood , that was the square footage 3 points per by the book , it was decided to make all aftermarket hoods 25 points , saving the Camaro guys 20 points in the process . They thank you by the way . 

   On another note how is your 5 foot long 2 gallon holding fuel fill reduction coming along ?

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1 hour ago, enginerd said:

I had to recheck the rule, as I remembered it this way as well.

 

At least in the 2020 version, the words are “exhaust header - 25 points”
 

I thought the words were “non-oe manifold or header”. So Ray does have wiggle room here to assign a value other than 25 points. Now, how he came upon 2 points is completely beyond me. 

I thought tech was only checking and enforcing the rules, I didn't realize that tech was making up new rules when at the track. Maybe that's why Ray wants me to be there, so I can see him doing this. :)

 

Good news for everyone: cast iron exhaust manifolds are apparently only 1 point per side for any year manifold that bolts up.

rm-1.jpg

Edited by mender

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The header rule seems pretty damn clear. 25pts. 

 

If that's not the case submit a question to the knowledge base for clarification. AFAIK the knowledge base is the bible now. 

 

What worries me is the ambiguity of something like the AL flywheel. I recently read through the rules and it was pretty clear to me that clutch stuff was open and free. If it's not, why not add it to the list of points on the tech inspection form?

 

Has anyone submitted a clarification on the flywheels yet? I don't want to submit a redundant one as they have their work cut out for them. 

 

It would be helpful to see current pending submissions so they don't get slammed with 25 of the same question. 

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20 hours ago, Ray Franck said:

  NO a different stock cast iron exhaust manifold was valued at 2 points .

 

  If they are so great how did Headman or Hooker come to be ?   It is my concern and it was my call .  The rule says headers are 25 points these are in no way a header


Does this 2 point rule apply to intake manifolds as well? If it’s the same material as oem and it’s oem on a different car, it’s only 2 points?

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25 minutes ago, KoneKillah said:

The header rule seems pretty damn clear. 25pts. 

 

If that's not the case submit a question to the knowledge base for clarification. AFAIK the knowledge base is the bible now. 

 

What worries me is the ambiguity of something like the AL flywheel. I recently read through the rules and it was pretty clear to me that clutch stuff was open and free. If it's not, why not add it to the list of points on the tech inspection form?

 

Has anyone submitted a clarification on the flywheels yet? I don't want to submit a redundant one as they have their work cut out for them. 

 

It would be helpful to see current pending submissions so they don't get slammed with 25 of the same question. 

 

The real question is, how do we police the flywheel rule if it were added?  For many engines its quite tough to gain access to the flywheel to investigate a protest, and even harder to spot during a race or in impound to file one.

 

For this reason, clutch and flywheel will likely remain "free" despite what's posted here.  Determining whether or not a flywheel is factory or aftermarket requires gearbox removal on most cars, and therefore cannot be completed during tech.

 

Normally I'm part of the no free parts brigade, but.

 

Flywheel failure can be very dangerous, and I'd prefer not to have teams disassembling factory dual mass flywheels and "lightening" them with hand tools.  Someone loosing their legs in a car would be bad for the entire series, and for that reason the rule should be 100% factory flywheel, unmodified, or SFI rated aftermarket only.  Both at 0 points.  The benefits in the grand scheme are minimal, but the safety implications have mostly been overlooked up until now.

 

I'm not sure id want a 30+ year old chunk of iron of dubious history spinning at 6000 RPM a mere 6" from my ankles.

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25 minutes ago, cowboys647 said:


Does this 2 point rule apply to intake manifolds as well? If it’s the same material as oem and it’s oem on a different car, it’s only 2 points?

JDM square top here I come!

Edited by KoneKillah
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6 minutes ago, SonsOfIrony said:

 

The real question is, how do we police the flywheel rule if it were added?  For many engines its quite tough to gain access to the flywheel to investigate a protest, and even harder to spot during a race or in impound to file one.

 

For this reason, clutch and flywheel will likely remain "free" despite what's posted here.  Determining whether or not a flywheel is factory or aftermarket requires gearbox removal on most cars, and therefore cannot be completed during tech.

 

Normally I'm part of the no free parts brigade, but.

 

Flywheel failure can be very dangerous, and I'd prefer not to have teams disassembling factory dual mass flywheels and "lightening" them with hand tools.  Someone loosing their legs in a car would be bad for the entire series, and for that reason the rule should be 100% factory flywheel, unmodified, or SFI rated aftermarket only.  Both at 0 points.  The benefits in the grand scheme are minimal, but the safety implications have mostly been overlooked up until now.

 

I'm not sure id want a 30+ year old chunk of iron of dubious history spinning at 6000 RPM a mere 6" from my ankles.

 

 

I agree. Most gains from a flywheel are seen in 1st gear and are within the margin of error for said dyno. The advantage is in drivability (rev matching, etc) and those are quite minimal as well.

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38 minutes ago, cowboys647 said:


Does this 2 point rule apply to intake manifolds as well? If it’s the same material as oem and it’s oem on a different car, it’s only 2 points?

  NO 

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1 hour ago, cowboys647 said:


Does this 2 point rule apply to intake manifolds as well? If it’s the same material as oem and it’s oem on a different car, it’s only 2 points?

21 minutes ago, Ray Franck said:

  NO 

Can I ask for the reasoning behind this answer? Based on my understanding of this series, there is a "Single" governing ruleset, the BCCR, that applies the same to every car and then if a car is not of equal performance to another, the VPI is used to adjust so everyone is equal. Rulings made should be made unilaterally across all cars that the logic that is applied there. If car X can use part X, then car Y should be able to use part Y. 

 

If this camaro is not fast enough to pay for the 25pt header and can only afford 2pts to make this worthwhile then I think the action would be to modify the VPI down 23pts. 

 

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