Tire Rack Extreme Summer Performance Tire Test

[Bill Strong]

Tire Rack recently did an Extreme Performance Summer tire test - obviously, a segment of interest to the ChampCar crowd - with four tires:

BFGoodrich g-Force Rival S1.5

Bridgestone Potenza RE-71R

Dunlop Direzza ZIII

Yokohama ADVAN A052

The full report and videos on each of the four tires is at the link below.

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/testDisplay.jsp?ttid=242

[wvumtnbkr]

I think these are great tests for track days or autocross, but wear is a huge factor this is impossible to evaluate without long term track testing.

 

Interesting results regardless!

[Snorman]

5 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I think these are great tests for track days or autocross, but wear is a huge factor this is impossible to evaluate without long term track testing.

 

Interesting results regardless!

We are planning on running these for a 7-hour at Sebring in December. 

From what we are told, they wear better than the RE71R and are faster.  

But Advan tread depth of 7/32" doesn't compare well with RE71R at 8/32" and RS4 at 8.9/32". 

[pintodave]

7 hours ago, Snorman said:

We are planning on running these for a 7-hour at Sebring in December. 

From what we are told, they wear better than the RE71R and are faster.  

But Advan tread depth of 7/32" doesn't compare well with RE71R at 8/32" and RS4 at 8.9/32". 

 

And the Yoko had better gas mileage - bonus LOL. The new Hankook was not on there, I was planning on buying a set. Would have been nice to see it in the mix for reference.

 

As a side note: as cool as it is to see the tire selection improving, I don't like the way this is going. I think you'll see more teams ponying up for the fastest possible tire with a complete disregard for how many sets are needed per event (using 14 hrs as a benchmark). We are already starting to see it with a few teams with deeper pockets. If it gets to the point of needing multiple sets of tires to be considered "competitive", that will be a game changer for the series, and not in a good way. Historically speaking, it's what racers do - outspend each other into oblivion and kill a good thing. 

 

[tommytipover]

3 minutes ago, pintodave said:

 We are already starting to see it with a few teams with deeper pockets. If it gets to the point of needing multiple sets of tires to be considered "competitive", that will be a game changer for the series, and not in a good way. Historically speaking, it's what racers do - outspend each other into oblivion and kill a good thing.

 

Time to raise the TW requirement?

[thewheelerZ]

3 minutes ago, tommytipover said:

 

Time to raise the TW requirement?

 

I wouldn't be opposed to that. Serious question though, how would a higher treadwear tire react to the punishment we put it through? At what point/treadwear would the tire just start chunking and we actually go through MORE tires?

[pintodave]

8 minutes ago, tommytipover said:

 

Time to raise the TW requirement?

 

Or limit tire mfg's...  Are there any market segments with respect to dia/size selection that are not supported by Dunlop or Hankook?  

 

Trust me, I am the farthest from some nanny-state anti-choice I-want-to-tell-you-whats-best-for-you person, but turning this series into a tire war is NOT a good thing.

 

Edit: obviously the tire mfg's are just as guilty and are essentially our drug dealers. I do not know the testing procedures for treadwear rating, but if you have two tires that are both rated "180" and one lasts 3 hours and one lasts 20 hours, something is suspect. 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2019 by pintodave

[Rapido]

I know that a couple of the fast Miatas at VIR last weekend were doing the race on two sets of RE-71s. The lap time advantage over a set of RS4s or AD08s can be significant - for that reason we're thinking about doing the same next year. You know what they say; if you can't beat them, outspend them!

[wvumtnbkr]

26 minutes ago, pintodave said:

 

Or limit tire mfg's...  Are there any market segments with respect to dia/size selection that are not supported by Dunlop or Hankook?  

 

Trust me, I am the farthest from some nanny-state anti-choice I-want-to-tell-you-whats-best-for-you person, but turning this series into a tire war is NOT a good thing.

 

Edit: obviously the tire mfg's are just as guilty and are essentially our drug dealers. I do not know the testing procedures for treadwear rating, but if you have two tires that are both rated "180" and one lasts 3 hours and one lasts 20 hours, something is suspect. 

 

 

The treadwear rating is a joke.  The older toyo tires were 140.  When the autocross people created a 200 tw class, the toyo mysteriously became a 200 tw tire overnight...

 

I don't know how you would regulate this in a series like ours.

 

People try to make the point that nobody will spend money like that just to get a chance at a cool trophy.  bull cookies.  There are teams doing it!

[Ray Franck]

There is no standard treadwear test or speck to my knowledge its a sugested number . And I have lived through numerous tire wars in different series and the racer was never the winner . Speck tire would save everyone money but that is just my opinion, its hard not to bolt on a couple of seconds if you can afford doubling your tire budget every 10 hrs ..

[JDChristianson]

I can’t help but find it interesting that it’s ok for teams to spend a billion bucks elsewhere on the car but we’re freaking out about tires.     

 

Tires are a big deal, I understand that, but they are not that far apart on lap times.   How many teams have 4 drivers that can get the most from tires lap after lap? It’s also been pointed out numerous times that the FTD car/team rarely wins.  

 

A couple other things could keep this spending frenzy in check.   Maybe you can’t change tires and fuel at the same stop,  maybe if you do both the min time is 6 min, maybe you can only change one at a time ( per stop), maybe no power tools are allowed and the tire changer is blindfolded

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pintodave]

6 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

I can’t help but find it interesting that it’s ok for teams to spend a billion bucks elsewhere on the car but we’re freaking out about tires.     

 

 

Yea, and all of that spending has been let out of Pandora's Box and is super hard to reign back in isn't it? Edit: to further counter your point, nobody is holding a gun to our heads and making us spend the billion bucks - but what does a large majority of teams do (myself included)? Max out those points baby! Spend spend spend! If I can bolt on a tire and go 2.5 seconds a lap faster at Sebring (just guessing - possibly more? less?) why the hell would I not do that? I'm an idiot - I'll do it, but I won't like it. It will take my avg tire budget from ~mid 20 hours to maybe ~8 hours? Approx a 3x increase. No bueno. 

 

The "tire war" is far from an issue today, why let it get there? Mark my words, it WILL get there.  

Edited August 15, 2019 by pintodave

[Ron_e]

43 minutes ago, Rapido said:

I know that a couple of the fast Miatas at VIR last weekend were doing the race on two sets of RE-71s. The lap time advantage over a set of RS4s or AD08s can be significant - for that reason we're thinking about doing the same next year. You know what they say; if you can't beat them, outspend them!

 

Two sets -ha.  Try needing 4 sets, it has been done.

[Ray Franck]

8 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

I can’t help but find it interesting that it’s ok for teams to spend a billion bucks elsewhere on the car but we’re freaking out about tires.     

 

Tires are a big deal, I understand that, but they are not that far apart on lap times.   How many teams have 4 drivers that can get the most from tires lap after lap? It’s also been pointed out numerous times that the FTD car/team rarely wins.  

 

A couple other things could keep this spending frenzy in check.   Maybe you can’t change tires and fuel at the same stop,  maybe if you do both the min time is 6 min, maybe you can only change one at a time ( per stop), maybe no power tools are allowed and the tire changer is blindfolded

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dude im like n what you be sayin ...

[wvumtnbkr]

10 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

I can’t help but find it interesting that it’s ok for teams to spend a billion bucks elsewhere on the car but we’re freaking out about tires.     

 

Tires are a big deal, I understand that, but they are not that far apart on lap times.   How many teams have 4 drivers that can get the most from tires lap after lap? It’s also been pointed out numerous times that the FTD car/team rarely wins.  

 

A couple other things could keep this spending frenzy in check.   Maybe you can’t change tires and fuel at the same stop,  maybe if you do both the min time is 6 min, maybe you can only change one at a time ( per stop), maybe no power tools are allowed and the tire changer is blindfolded

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm not in favor of the other spend items that are now allowed as well....

[pintodave]

Just now, wvumtnbkr said:

I'm not in favor of the other spend items that are now allowed as well....

 

Exactly. 

 

But we do it. Why? Because racecar. 

[Black Magic]

32 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

I can’t help but find it interesting that it’s ok for teams to spend a billion bucks elsewhere on the car but we’re freaking out about tires.     

 

Tires are a big deal, I understand that, but they are not that far apart on lap times.   How many teams have 4 drivers that can get the most from tires lap after lap? It’s also been pointed out numerous times that the FTD car/team rarely wins.  

 

A couple other things could keep this spending frenzy in check.   Maybe you can’t change tires and fuel at the same stop,  maybe if you do both the min time is 6 min, maybe you can only change one at a time ( per stop), maybe no power tools are allowed and the tire changer is blindfolded

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One month ago an indy winner used up more tires in a weekend than another team i have helped used in 3 races (according to the internet reports on the tire changes)....

 

It is here.... 

[Black Magic]

41 minutes ago, Ray Franck said:

There is no standard treadwear test or speck to my knowledge its a sugested number . And I have lived through numerous tire wars in different series and the racer was never the winner . Speck tire would save everyone money but that is just my opinion, its hard not to bolt on a couple of seconds if you can afford doubling your tire budget every 10 hrs ..

 

Approved tire list maybe? Pick the 3 or 4 tires regular teams run (hankook, dunlop, bfg rival "endurance", faulken for example).

[JDChristianson]

41 minutes ago, pintodave said:

 

Yea, and all of that spending has been let out of Pandora's Box and is super hard to reign back in isn't it? Edit: to further counter your point, nobody is holding a gun to our heads and making us spend the billion bucks - but what does a large majority of teams do (myself included)? Max out those points baby! Spend spend spend! If I can bolt on a tire and go 2.5 seconds a lap faster at Sebring (just guessing - possibly more? less?) why the hell would I not do that? I'm an idiot - I'll do it, but I won't like it. It will take my avg tire budget from ~mid 20 hours to maybe ~8 hours? Approx a 3x increase. No bueno. 

 

The "tire war" is far from an issue today, why let it get there? Mark my words, it WILL get there.  

 

32 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I'm not in favor of the other spend items that are now allowed as well....

I agree guys,  I think you probably know I agree if you’ve read my posts on many topics.      

 

Bushings and springs should have never been free,  gear ratios shouldn’t have been free,  fuel should be pumped out and volume checked, race fuel should be banned.  engines should have been torn down and strokers exposed, on and on and on.     

 

So maybe tires are where the buck  will stop but I am not holding my breath 

 

 

 

[Rapido]

6 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

Approved tire list maybe? Pick the 3 or 4 tires regular teams run (hankook, dunlop, bfg rival "endurance", faulken for example).

 

If only we had a title sponsor who could facilitate this for us - maybe offer a discount on the approved tire list for CCES competitors and ensure availability in the common sizes.

[bendawson3]

Treadwear ratings are self-assigned by the mfg. Somebody mentioned how the Toyo tire magically changed nothing about the compound and suddenly went from 140 to 200! Magic of the market or actual cauldron, newt style magic? So hard to say. 

 

If it starts taking a few sets of tires to get through a weekend, I'm out. 

[karman1970]

1 hour ago, thewheelerZ said:

 

I wouldn't be opposed to that. Serious question though, how would a higher treadwear tire react to the punishment we put it through? At what point/treadwear would the tire just start chunking and we actually go through MORE tires?

 

This will be our first year running 200TW tires.  Prior to that we ran the 205/15 Dunlop DZ102, 460TW.  They hold up fine and treadwear is good, I think.  We could probably get 3 race weekends and an autocross or two out of two sets before they turned into slicks.  Definite lack of grip all the way around compared to the fast cars.  Have run a 2:01 at COTA and a 3:12 at Road America.  1900lb Civic and we haven’t done anything as far as fine tuning camber settings or tire temps.  Starting to see small chunking on one set of fronts on the outside edge.  I’ll take some pictures tonight.  I think tires in the 300-400 TW range would be fine for little cars.  I don’t know how they would behave on bigger stuff.

[Team Infiniti]

You can trust a front running car would devastate a set of those 460tw tires in half a day.

[enginerd]

18 minutes ago, karman1970 said:

 

This will be our first year running 200TW tires.  Prior to that we ran the 205/15 Dunlop DZ102, 460TW.  They hold up fine and treadwear is good, I think.  We could probably get 3 race weekends and an autocross or two out of two sets before they turned into slicks.  Definite lack of grip all the way around compared to the fast cars.  Have run a 2:01 at COTA and a 3:12 at Road America.  1900lb Civic and we haven’t done anything as far as fine tuning camber settings or tire temps.  Starting to see small chunking on one set of fronts on the outside edge.  I’ll take some pictures tonight.  I think tires in the 300-400 TW range would be fine for little cars.  I don’t know how they would behave on bigger stuff.

Don’t waste any more time thinking or writing about 300+ TW “actual street tires” because there is zero chance that the series will mandate tires that hard. Zero.

[Team Infiniti]

1 minute ago, enginerd said:

Don’t waste any more time thinking or writing about 300+ TW “actual street tires” because there is zero chance that the series will mandate tires that hard. Zero.

Correct, focus should stay on a spec 3-4 tire type and or some rule that stymies frequent tire changes,  "frequent", whatever that may be, is easy enough to determine.