Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
turbogrill

filler tube in driver compartment

Recommended Posts

On 8/19/2019 at 10:45 AM, Slugworks Paul said:

From someone who has been here since the beginning - Condren had a similar rule about having an additional bulkhead separate from fuel cell canister, which wasn't enforced (we built one at the time, though), so it was eventually removed (I think). Now it's back, and actually being enforced to some degree as far as I can tell.

Back then, the installation was considered for the quality of the work.

 

My cell and filler set-up was accepted for what it was, a professional installation of proper racing equipment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Snake said:

 

100% this.   If you have a metal filler tube there is no need for more metal.   Covering everything up prevents owners AND tech from inspecting components for condition and leaks.    

 

 

A 100% metal filler scares me.  Even a light impact in the right location could rupture the filler.  Imagine a worst case scenario where new driver leaves the pits and get tapped in the rear corner because he/she is off pace or off line.  If the filler ruptures, it's not outside the realm of possibility that 1, 2, even 3 gallons of fuel could exit a broken filler in less than a few seconds.  Bulkhead or no bulkhead, this is going to make a Huge mess, and any fire that starts is going to be extremely difficult to extinguish.

 

Mender's setup, similar to my old setup, allowed for significant shifting of the outer body structure, without ever effecting the centrally mounted cell.

 

I saw no increase in safety by enclosing my roll cage protected safety box in a second safety box.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, SonsOfIrony said:

 

A 100% metal filler scares me.  Even a light impact in the right location could rupture the filler.  Imagine a worst case scenario where new driver leaves the pits and get tapped in the rear corner because he/she is off pace or off line.  If the filler ruptures, it's not outside the realm of possibility that 1, 2, even 3 gallons of fuel could exit a broken filler in less than a few seconds.  Bulkhead or no bulkhead, this is going to make a Huge mess, and any fire that starts is going to be extremely difficult to extinguish.

 

Mender's setup, similar to my old setup, allowed for significant shifting of the outer body structure, without ever effecting the centrally mounted cell.

 

I saw no increase in safety by enclosing my roll cage protected safety box in a second safety box.

You have to have some flexible hose to connect to a cell neck right?  That's where the give happens.  As long as that connection isnt in the drivers compartment you're good. 

Edited by Snake

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Snake said:

You have to have some flexible hose to connect to a cell neck right?  That's where the give happens.  As long as that connection isnt in the drivers compartment you're good. 

That's usually just a short coupler. Very little give there, as compared to a longer length of vinyl tubing. I used about 1.5 foot length that served this purpose as well as a 'sight glass' for the fueling person to eliminate the possibility of huge spillover when the cell was full.

With the new rule and enforcement it'll probably be inevitable that a bunch of fuel hits the ground (and the side of the car, and the fueler's shoes, etc) every single stop, there's no good visual cues to know when it's full. Yet another safety detractor of this rule.

Edited by Slugworks Paul
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Slugworks Paul said:

That's usually just a short coupler. Very little give there, as compared to a longer length of vinyl tubing. I used about 1.5 foot length that served this purpose as well as a 'sight glass' for the fueling person to eliminate the possibility of huge spillover when the cell was full.

With the new rule and enforcement it'll probably be inevitable that a bunch of fuel hits the ground (and the side of the car, and the fueler's shoes, etc) every single stop, there's no good visual cues to know when it's full. Yet another safety detractor of this rule.

While I understand that the goal of these rule changes was to increase safety, they do not appear to have been very well thought out before being implemented. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Snorman said:

While I understand that the goal of these rule changes was to increase safety, they do not appear to have been very well thought out before being implemented. 

 

It's a common theme, and unfortunately the way our rulemaking process is currently, additions by tech aren't well vetted by the board or the TAC. I've asked if this could be changed and i'll be submitting a petition for this review cycle to this effect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Slugworks Paul said:

 

It's a common theme, and unfortunately the way our rulemaking process is currently, additions by tech aren't well vetted by the board or the TAC. I've asked if this could be changed and i'll be submitting a petition for this review cycle to this effect.

Our team has discussed this as well (petition to have this rule more well written and effective). This, after @MoparBoyy cut 30% of high quality, brand new steel braided lines out of our Cobra to replace with metal lines (that bend, kink, etc.). 

  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Our team has discussed this as well (petition to have this rule more well written and effective). This, after @MoparBoyy cut 30% of high quality, brand new steel braided lines out of our Cobra to replace with metal lines (that bend, kink, etc.). 


Are they now bent steel hard lines? That sounds like a PITA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:


Are they now bent steel hard lines? That sounds like a PITA.

NASCAR mandates the use of stainless steel braided fuel lines with AN fittings. Much safer than stock-style steel lines that use rubber hoses clamped to the ends.

 

Again, something's not right when OEM-style metal lines can run unprotected through the driver's cockpit when SS braided lines can't. Discouraging the use of proven professional level racing equipment over production line stuff sounds backwards to me.

Edited by mender
  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, mender said:

Again, something's not right when OEM-style metal lines can run unprotected through the driver's cockpit when SS braided lines can't.

Rhetorical because I know you have :

 

Have you ever seen a SS braided line leak from old age or from resting on a exhaust manifold or after being used as a ground strap? Does it look much different then a newer line?

Edited by Team Infiniti
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Rhetorical because I know you have :

 

Have you ever seen a SS braided line leak from old age or from resting on a exhaust manifold or after being used as a ground strap? Does it look much different then a newer line?

Actually, I haven't had a SS braided line leak from old age. Never seen one on an exhaust manifold or used as a ground strap!

 

The only time I have replaced "old" lines is when they started to get frayed and were snagging my skin when working nearby. :)

Edited by mender
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We have all sorts of folk here, some of us (me) save old things that still look good and can say first hand : They can and do leak from those items, aside from a obvious short circuit burn, there are no outward signs of being compromised.

 

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

We have all sorts of folk here, some of us (me) save old things that still look good and can say first hand : They can and do leak from those items, aside from a obvious short circuit burn, there are no outward signs of being compromised.

 

 

 

You do make some valid points, however:

1. PTFE lined hoses do not leak from 'old age' - crappy rubber ones do. I'd be fine with being mandated to use PTFE lined hoses and it's easy to tell when they are.
2. Resting on a manifold (or danger of occurrence) is an installation error that's pretty easily caught.
3. Becoming a ground strap is another installation error that's easy to catch - don't bundle wires with fuel lines or if you do so, have adequate insulation or protective shielding between the two.

That said, as with anything, installation methods are the key. It's an easy way out to make preference for factory installed stuff as it takes the amateur human error out of it, but it's not to say it can't be executed well and should be inspected in tech.

Edited by Slugworks Paul
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree 95% of the installs are good, I also agree PTFE is much much more age resistant, heck it may even behave differently with a current or exhaust heating it up but there are many levels of fab skill and hording of unknown stuff among the group, rules are there to protect everyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said:


Are they now bent steel hard lines? That sounds like a PITA.

Yep. That's exactly what they are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

We have all sorts of folk here, some of us (me) save old things that still look good and can say first hand : They can and do leak from those items, aside from a obvious short circuit burn, there are no outward signs of being compromised.

 

 

Maybe it's because we don't get much ethanol content up here.

 

I've used SS braided oil lines that were likely 20 years old with no leaks.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If the line is encased in steel, you might not know it's leaking until it runs out the end of the enclulosure.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

If the line is encased in steel, you might not know it's leaking until it runs out the end of the enclulosure.

 I think the point is, one would much rather find the car is unexpectedly out of fuel rather then finding a leak as it spurts upward in the cabin. Yes, it can be seen in some post fire videos.

 

Been on fire a few times, fortunately nothing more then 1st deg, darwin has been kind AND I do learn from mistakes.

Edited by Team Infiniti
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

7 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

 I think the point is, one would much rather find the car is unexpectedly out of fuel rather then finding a leak as it spurts upward in the cabin. Yes, it can be seen in some post fire videos.

 

Depends highly on where it's leaking out from the conduit, could be leaking directly onto exhaust.  Remember, for it to be fire it needs an ignition/heat source.

I'll take this logic one step further, I contend that having your lines running non-visibly inside conduit can actually cause damage to hoses by itself. Conduit will inevitably have junctions, corners, bends, and other chafing dangers and it's hard to 'secure' hose inside of conduit. You just kinda shove it through. Having your braided stainless PTFE hose un-shrouded allows you to use proper insulated clamps, control routing, prevent movement and inspect it regularly.

Edited by Slugworks Paul
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Only fuel leak I've had was a fuel rail leak at Laguna from one of my crew members leaning on the inlet tube when looking around the engine. It was spraying on the engine under the deck lid, and I clued in when I saw that the rear window right in front of the engine bay had a film of something on it. Pulled the lid and saw the fountain, shut it off and spent the rest of the day trying to find another fuel rail. No fire despite the exhaust manifold right underneath the leak.

 

Ended up silver soldering the rail and getting ready for the next day.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said:

If the line is encased in steel, you might not know it's leaking until it runs out the end of the enclulosure.

 

Hmmm.

 

A properly aimed "enclosure" and a properly calibrated "leak" definitely doesn't turn out to be an undercar rocket booster with a well times ignition source.......

 

Off to the batcave Robin!

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said:

I'll take this logic one step further, I contend that having your lines running non-visibly inside conduit can actually cause damage to hoses by itself. Conduit will inevitably have junctions, corners, bends, and other chafing dangers and it's hard to 'secure' hose inside of conduit. You just kinda shove it through. Having your braided stainless PTFE hose un-shrouded allows you to use proper insulated clamps, control routing, prevent movement and inspect it regularly.

Exactly 100% correct. We had the insulated clamps and had it very cleanly ran and easily visible for regular inspection. The idea of running fuel line through a tube, or encasing it in a box or somehow otherwise hiding it from view sure doesn't seem like a very good idea. We talked about mandrel bending and running a length of rollbar tubing through the car and having it open at each end outside of the driver compartment. First, the feed and return lines would be rubbing each other. Second, if a leak developed, we'd be lugging around X-quarts of open and un-contained fuel that would slosh around in the tube. So we run two smaller tubes for the feed and return lines. And have exactly the same risks. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Our cell, fuel pumps, surge, fill tube, vent line, catch on the vent line are all completely contained in the trunk which then has a bulkhead separating it from the driver compartment.  This leaves the fill tube open and visible as we fill - I am so thankful we can see the fill tube as I don't think we have spilled a drop since we went to this system in 2014.  As soon as fuel is visible in the fill tube there is very little room to add more so the filler slows the rate dramatically.

 

We throw the drip pan underneath to follow the rules but the cell sits horizontal so if anything did spill we would need a pan larger than the 17X34" cell to catch it and it would have to be enough to cover the cell, drip down the side, then into the pan.  The car is long gone before that could ever happen.

Edited by Ron_e
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I spilled about a cup of fuel once when I looked away at the wrong time to respond to the pit marshal.

 

Being able to see the fuel level in the filler tube makes it much easier not to spill. 

Edited by mender
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...