Why $2500 for engine swaps?

[mender]

Who is asking for this increase and why?

[wvumtnbkr]

Great question.

 

I thought we had petitions for things like this.

[JDChristianson]

there was a petition,   went through the normal process and was out there for everyone to comment on.    

 

Seems even more reasonable now that 2300 brakes are ok.................

 

[mender]

So now it sounds like the future (and likely present) of Champcar is $20,000+ builds.

[Ron_e]

I think it was because the Miata swaps couldn't fit their swap kit and engine under $1500 even though they were racing that way... you know, because they needed it.

[JDChristianson]

3 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

I think it was because the Miata swaps couldn't fit their swap kit and engine under $1500 even though they were racing that way... you know, because they needed it.

Not really.    There are plenty of engines running in cars on the VPI list that cost more than 2500 bucks   Boxster comes to mind.   Why should someone doing a legal HP swap have to use cheaper stuff.     Power is the limiter not cost.   

 

22 minutes ago, mender said:

So now it sounds like the future (and likely present) of Champcar is $20,000+ builds.

So raising the swap dollar amount 1000 dollar takes the series from super cheap to 20k?   That must be in the Canuk exchange math...........   

I don't disagree that the series is evolving to more expensive builds but this is not the straw that broke the camels back.  IMO

[mender]

1 minute ago, JDChristianson said:

Not really.    There are plenty of engines running in cars on the VPI list that cost more than 2500 bucks   Boxster comes to mind.   Why should someone doing a legal HP swap have to use cheaper stuff.     Power is the limiter not cost.   

 

So raising the swap dollar amount 1000 dollar takes the series from super cheap to 20k?   That must be in the Canuk exchange math...........   

I don't disagree that the series is evolving to more expensive builds but this is not the straw that broke the camels back.  IMO

Canuck math says that 1 + 1 + 1 adds up pretty quickly.

 

Pretty sure US math says the same...

[67Mustang]

What defines the swap cost? Is it that I actually bought an engine from a junkyard or person for $200 or is it that a crate engine costs xx so that is the value I use? I have an early 911 engine I paid $200 plus a set of American Flyer trains for 20 years ago. No reciept obviously so it means nothing I know . If you can weld custom parts can be cheap to an extent.

[mender]

Used to be the average of the 10 lowest A list ads on car-part.com.

 

An LX9 engine at the time that I built my car was about $120; I bought mine for $89.99 at the local pick-n-pull.

Edited August 31, 2019 by mender

[67Mustang]

That seems fairly reasonable 

[Ron_e]

20 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

Not really.    There are plenty of engines running in cars on the VPI list that cost more than 2500 bucks   Boxster comes to mind.   Why should someone doing a legal HP swap have to use cheaper stuff.     Power is the limiter not cost.   

 

 

No, I'm pretty sure that when there is a $1,500 cap that cost was supposed to be a limiter as well.  Looks like you say the 'supposed' word was being dropped.

 

Miata swap kit = $1,100 plus engine, intake, header, sensors was not fitting under $1,500.

[67Mustang]

In thinking about the 914 I was forgetting about the $1500 or $2500. . Eitherway by the time you buy the mount, headers and oil tank no way to stay under $1500 just for those parts although you could mod the 911 headers and oil tank for free and those come with the 911 engine. That said would be cheaper on the 914 to use a 1976 2.0 type 4 and pay 125 pts go turbo and intercooler. Does lead to creativity for sure.

[LuckyKid]

It was said in the meeting something to the effect of (the intent of the rule was to prevent unique/exotic swaps and that an increase would allow regular swaps more easily while still limiting the exotic swaps)  

 

I personally was surprised it was approved so easily and that consideration of cost (IE: Eco vs. K-Swap) wasn't more carefully considered.

 

 

Edited August 31, 2019 by LuckyKid

[Snake]

The team that complains about costs increasing the most wrote a petition to increase the cost of allowable engine swap.  It was approved.  100% self serving.  

[Snorman]

35 minutes ago, Snake said:

The team that complains about costs increasing the most wrote a petition to increase the cost of allowable engine swap.  It was approved.  100% self serving.  

Absolutely true. The same team constantly berating speed creep and the cost of racing and teams using expensive tires petitioned for this increase. 

[ABR-Glen]

It's not a cost *increase* if you're already running it

Edited August 31, 2019 by ABR-Glen

[Indysupra]

People who cry the most usually are the ones hiding the most. 

[67Mustang]

Alls I know is about the time I think I have something figured out, I realize I don’t!! Or the interpretation changes lol

[wvumtnbkr]

1 hour ago, Indysupra said:

People who cry the most usually are the ones hiding the most. 

I'm not sure that's true.

 

I am one of the ones who complains the most about cost creep.  You can check out my build thread (and car when it's done) anytime you like.

[wvumtnbkr]

6 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

there was a petition,   went through the normal process and was out there for everyone to comment on.    

 

Seems even more reasonable now that 2300 brakes are ok.................

 

Huh.  I missed that one!  Thanks for the heads up.

[hotchkis23]

4 hours ago, Ron_e said:

 

No, I'm pretty sure that when there is a $1,500 cap that cost was supposed to be a limiter as well.  Looks like you say the 'supposed' word was being dropped.

 

Miata swap kit = $1,100 plus engine, intake, header, sensors was not fitting under $1,500.

Even at $1100, for the current kit(ours was$900) the engine can be had for $200 or less, so say $1300, You use the stock intake anyway and you don't have to use the "header", we don't on our LE5. What sensors do you think you need that cannot be used with the stock ecu or the ability to run an aftermarket?  Ours are both the stock units btw. 

 

As I see it this swap can still be done for under the old $1500 amount.

Edited August 31, 2019 by hotchkis23

[Ron_e]

56 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

Even at $1100, for the current kit(ours was$900) the engine can be had for $200 or less, so say $1300, You use the stock intake anyway and you don't have to use the "header", we don't on our LE5. What sensors do you think you need that cannot be used with the stock ecu or the ability to run an aftermarket?  Ours are both the stock units btw. 

 

As I see it this swap can still be done for under the old $1500 amount.

 

Have to use current prices.  $1100 for kit, just looked on car-part (can't use your special deal) and it looks like $350, don't know on sensors but that is what it says on the Ecotec swap site, site also says intake. 

 

So are you saying anybody that ran an Ecotec Miata and didn't claim the header was not legal?

[QuaTTro]

2 hours ago, hotchkis23 said:

Even at $1100, for the current kit(ours was$900) the engine can be had for $200 or less, so say $1300, You use the stock intake anyway and you don't have to use the "header", we don't on our LE5. What sensors do you think you need that cannot be used with the stock ecu or the ability to run an aftermarket?  Ours are both the stock units btw. 

 

As I see it this swap can still be done for under the old $1500 amount.

 

I’d love to see a photo of your exhaust manifold on the LE5

[TimS]

I would like to buy one of the $200 LE5 engines too.

[theblue]

this whole thing reminds me of the silverado / LS1 contradiction.   added a truck too heavy by the rules to be on the list so that people can swap from it.