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Ron_e

2020 rules are live

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13 hours ago, Ron_e said:

 

How many teams are affected?  I know of 5 for sure, I am sure there were more.  Worth throwing away?  If they are going to cater to two MR2 teams why shelve 5+ TBirds?  Why aren't more MR2's being built, probably because everybody expects their value to change, one year it even did for a few moments.

 

The sacred fuel rule seems like it was bent, folded, mutilated for a few cars.  E30 (all years use large tank), Miata (1.6 & 1.8 both used large tank), Honda allowed to balloon.  Fox chassis came with fuel tanks ranging from 15.4 to 22 yet the Fox chassis Mustang gets restricted from everything but 15.4.

 

Yes the E30 became one of the targets when they were assigned the convertible fudge.  Same rule for the Fox Mustang?  No way, the Fox Mustang has to use the lightest coupe fudge not the convertible fudge. 

 

Not sure but I would guess the early years of ChumpCar had maybe 10% of the field be Fox cars, now it is getting rare to see even one car.  Did they all get scrapped?  No, see Utah 2019.  Fuel friendly Lucky Dog had six Fox chassis cars in May 2019 for 19% of the field, two months later ChampCar is there and not one of them show up.

 

2015 major VPI adjustment 70+ cars are lowered, Fox Mustang gets raised by 50 points till I convince a board member it should at least stay the same and not be double dipped.  Two years later 70+ cars lowered again and winless Fox chassis TBird raised by 100 50 points for a double dipping, any other winless cars raised?  How many SC300's are being raced?  Not a lot but they seem to grab a healthy number of podium spots, why not raise those?

 

Never mind, all rhetorical questions.

Why don't you build your T-bird, race it and submit a petition as to why your VPI is too high?  If you spent three years gather parts, you should have what you need?  

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13 hours ago, Ron_e said:

 

How many teams are affected?  I know of 5 for sure, I am sure there were more.  Worth throwing away?  If they are going to cater to two MR2 teams why shelve 5+ TBirds?  Why aren't more MR2's being built, probably because everybody expects their value to change, one year it even did for a few moments.

 

The sacred fuel rule seems like it was bent, folded, mutilated for a few cars.  E30 (all years use large tank), Miata (1.6 & 1.8 both used large tank), Honda allowed to balloon.  Fox chassis came with fuel tanks ranging from 15.4 to 22 yet the Fox chassis Mustang gets restricted from everything but 15.4.

 

Yes the E30 became one of the targets when they were assigned the convertible fudge.  Same rule for the Fox Mustang?  No way, the Fox Mustang has to use the lightest coupe fudge not the convertible fudge. 

 

Not sure but I would guess the early years of ChumpCar had maybe 10% of the field be Fox cars, now it is getting rare to see even one car.  Did they all get scrapped?  No, see Utah 2019.  Fuel friendly Lucky Dog had six Fox chassis cars in May 2019 for 19% of the field, two months later ChampCar is there and not one of them show up.

 

2015 major VPI adjustment 70+ cars are lowered, Fox Mustang gets raised by 50 points till I convince a board member it should at least stay the same and not be double dipped.  Two years later 70+ cars lowered again and winless Fox chassis TBird raised by 100 50 points for a double dipping, any other winless cars raised?  How many SC300's are being raced?  Not a lot but they seem to grab a healthy number of podium spots, why not raise those?

 

Never mind, all rhetorical questions.

 

People ballooning their tanks was not specific to a make (Honda). Once tech found out people were doing it, they outlawed it. 

As you are aware, fuel capacity is important. If two cars of the same chassis have very different fuel capacities, their values should reflect that. 

The AP2 S2000 just got raised and it never even made top 10. I still think 500 points for an AP1 is low, but time will tell. 

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7 minutes ago, red0 said:

 

People ballooning their tanks was not specific to a make (Honda). Once tech found out people were doing it, they outlawed it. 
 

 

 

That is false, the CEO knew it had been going on for awhile and told us it was normal/legal during our protest attempt.  It wasn't until we started a shitstorm on the forum with the details that the rule was changed.   I fully believe that ballooning would still be an under the table deal that a few teams we aware of if it wasn't what for what happened at the Dec. 17 race. 

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9 hours ago, mender said:

I suggested that if they want to allow  the E30 to get a certain engine swap and still only be at 500 points, that they lower the VPI to 443 points instead of opening a new can of worms with the "max model weight" pile of fudge. A specific change that achieves their goal as opposed to a global change that introduces yet another round of "escape from reality".

 

So much more honest and effective to post a 7 point reduction to allow that engine swap rather than try to sneak a fudge factor in the back door, which then of course holds it open for other cars to follow suit. "Unintended consequences".  

 

This 100%

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15 hours ago, SonsOfIrony said:

 Caught in a landslide...

 

11 hours ago, mender said:

I suggested that if they want to allow  the E30 to get a certain engine swap and still only be at 500 points, that they lower the VPI to 443 points instead of opening a new can of worms with the "max model weight" pile of fudge. A specific change that achieves their goal as opposed to a global change that introduces yet another round of "escape from reality".

 

So much more honest and effective to post a 7 point reduction to allow that engine swap rather than try to sneak a fudge factor in the back door, which then of course holds it open for other cars to follow suit. "Unintended consequences".  

I see what you did there^^^

13 minutes ago, Gkuhn41 said:

 

No Escape from reality....

"Open your eyes", @mender beat you to it.....

Edited by mcoppola
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I must look up and wonder what the BOD is up to.

I dont want any more random things falling from the skies on us

Surely they can understand and see why these things are frowned upon.

 

Edited by Huggy
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7 minutes ago, Huggy said:

I must look up and wonder what the BOD is up to.

I dont want any more random things falling from the skies on us

Surely they can understand and see why these things are frowned upon.

 

 

8ilEodB.jpg

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"I'm just a poor boy", so I hope that speed creep will not make things more expensive to compete moving forward.

edit: But, "I need no sympathy..."

Edited by mcoppola
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2 hours ago, Snake said:

 

 

That is false, the CEO knew it had been going on for awhile and told us it was normal/legal during our protest attempt.  It wasn't until we started a shitstorm on the forum with the details that the rule was changed.   I fully believe that ballooning would still be an under the table deal that a few teams we aware of if it wasn't what for what happened at the Dec. 17 race. 

It might be semantics,  but Mike chisek is NOT tech.

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3 hours ago, Jer said:

Why don't you build your T-bird, race it and submit a petition as to why your VPI is too high?  If you spent three years gather parts, you should have what you need?  

 

It is built and headed to its third race this weekend.  I wouldn't bother with a petition as the writing is on the wall for the Fox chassis and the series decisions, see my comments that you quoted.  Despite that we built it anyway as we had all of the parts and not looking to invest in an entirely different type of car as that probably would have disbanded my team.

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8 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

 

It is built and headed to its third race this weekend.  I wouldn't bother with a petition as the writing is on the wall for the Fox chassis and the series decisions, see my comments that you quoted.  Despite that we built it anyway as we had all of the parts and not looking to invest in an entirely different type of car as that probably would have disbanded my team.

I'm sorry to hear that.  I had no part in what happened to the T-bird, sorry. 

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51 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

 

It is built and headed to its third race this weekend.  I wouldn't bother with a petition as the writing is on the wall for the Fox chassis and the series decisions, see my comments that you quoted.  Despite that we built it anyway as we had all of the parts and not looking to invest in an entirely different type of car as that probably would have disbanded my team.

How many of the 2019 CC races would you have brought it to if the value hadn't increased? 

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1 hour ago, ABR-Glen said:

How many of the 2019 CC races would you have brought it to if the value hadn't increased? 

 

Since 2011 we have always done 3-4 ChumpCar/ChampCar races per year.  Everything on the west coast, south as far as COTA, east as far as Road America, north as far as Castrol.  When the TBird was double dipped and it took ChampCar five months to answer two questions specific to the car (the answers came only after much prodding and you know I am tenacious) we did other series for 2019, three races as usual.  We will see what 2020 brings, planning on one ChampCar race so far.  

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7 hours ago, Snorman said:

To be fair, I can't understand how people would interpret 100 points for a head to include 50 pts. for cams, 50 pts. for intake, 50 pts. for TB and 25 pts for a header. I mean, why would anybody NOT do a head swap if they got 175 points in "free" parts? The good old days, I guess.

 

Sounds a lot like the free intake and/or exhaust some cars get because the engine they swap in doesn't fit...

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39 minutes ago, Grufton said:

 

Sounds a lot like the free intake and/or exhaust some cars get because the engine they swap in doesn't fit...

Yeah, I agree. 

Oh...I need this header so I can swap a more powerful engine into my car and it should be free. 

Oh...I need this intake manifold so I can swap a more powerful engine into my car and it should be free. 

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10 hours ago, Snorman said:

The cams and valvetrain...yeah. However, from what I've gathered, there is a very strong likelihood that teams were mixing and matching cams from one engine to another. So the cam in that swapped head might not have been from that head originally. 

 

That would be the Neon guys, not the Honda guys.

Edited by mender
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2 hours ago, Snorman said:

\Oh...I need this intake manifold so I can swap a more powerful engine into my car and it should be free. 

Also the Neon guys.

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2 minutes ago, mender said:

Also the Neon guys.

 

Some Miata guys were using stock cams, two stock exhaust cams I think it was.  They are stock... or so the story goes.

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9 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

 

Some Miata guys were using stock cams, two stock exhaust cams I think it was.  They are stock... or so the story goes.

Never legal and I have personally seen the valve cover off a podium miata looking for this.

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6 hours ago, mcoppola said:

"I'm just a poor boy", so I hope that speed creep will not make things more expensive to compete moving forward.

edit: But, "I need no sympathy..."

"Cause it's easy come, easy go ..."

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"Mama, I had a plan.

Change the rules to get ahead,

Wrote a petition but now it's dead.

Mama, my build had just begun,

But now I have to throw it all away."

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3 hours ago, Grufton said:

Sounds a lot like the free intake and/or exhaust some cars get because the engine they swap in doesn't fit...

 

 There are a few rules that I loathe but this one really grinds my gears. We are constantly told that we chose our car yet every time someone wants to do a swap a performance part gets thrown in for free. It started with the bs $1000 transmission adapter for the Nissan (claimed to be handmade for $75), then it's the Miata manifold custom built tranny adapter and then other cars need headers. All for zero points.

 

Every damn add on part or non-oe modification (including slotting strut mounts for camber) is a performance part whether that part delivers hp, torque, handling, reliability etc and should be assigned points. The free stuff drives a very large wedge between the haves and have nots and it's always been my opinion that the rules should be there and changed to keep that divide as small as possible.

 

 

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23 hours ago, Ron_e said:

 

How many teams are affected?  I know of 5 for sure, I am sure there were more.  Worth throwing away?  If they are going to cater to two MR2 teams why shelve 5+ TBirds?  Why aren't more MR2's being built, probably because everybody expects their value to change, one year it even did for a few moments.

 

The sacred fuel rule seems like it was bent, folded, mutilated for a few cars.  E30 (all years use large tank), Miata (1.6 & 1.8 both used large tank), Honda allowed to balloon.  Fox chassis came with fuel tanks ranging from 15.4 to 22 yet the Fox chassis Mustang gets restricted from everything but 15.4.

 

Yes the E30 became one of the targets when they were assigned the convertible fudge.  Same rule for the Fox Mustang?  No way, the Fox Mustang has to use the lightest coupe fudge not the convertible fudge. 

 

Not sure but I would guess the early years of ChumpCar had maybe 10% of the field be Fox cars, now it is getting rare to see even one car.  Did they all get scrapped?  No, see Utah 2019.  Fuel friendly Lucky Dog had six Fox chassis cars in May 2019 for 19% of the field, two months later ChampCar is there and not one of them show up.

 

2015 major VPI adjustment 70+ cars are lowered, Fox Mustang gets raised by 50 points till I convince a board member it should at least stay the same and not be double dipped.  Two years later 70+ cars lowered again and winless Fox chassis TBird raised by 100 50 points for a double dipping, any other winless cars raised?  How many SC300's are being raced?  Not a lot but they seem to grab a healthy number of podium spots, why not raise those?

 

Never mind, all rhetorical questions.

1. Miata's get 12.7 max stock value if they swap or run 1.8's, and that is at a measly 14.85/1 pwr to weight.  2. You cannot balloon takns so there goes the honda argument.  3.  Fox chassis does not make a Mustang equal to a Cougar via this series. Buy the frame and put the body work on and suspension/drivetrain for one and take the points. We cannot say our Miata shares a chassis with a 16.4 gallon Mazda 6, they are both Mazdas and are similar?.  I have run against SOA, are they cheating?  Or can no one else build as good of a car as them? 

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1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

Never legal and I have personally seen the valve cover off a podium miata looking for this.

Yes, and it only works on the 1.6 Miatas.  Gives them about 2hp and 10 ft. lbs of torque.  To go along with their 114hp and 105 total ft/lbs and stock 11.9 gallons of fuel.  Not saying it is right, but seeing how some teams get a swap weight 400lbs over the actual weight of their car, I'm not that pissed off about it

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