Jump to content
Slugworks Paul

BCCR 6.2.5 Flagtronics required 1/1/2021 - discussion

Recommended Posts

23 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said:


Yeah, it's just $150, and the new electric steering rule cost me $400

Why did the power steering rule cost you money?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said:



I most certainly did! And so did others. That's a significant amount of work (and potentially cost) for a number of teams.

 

I've seen the pictures.  I also looked my car over very thoroughly after my crash.  The upper part of the firewall moved back 14", and stopped at the dash bar. The lower barely moved at all keeping the footwell area intact.  I doubt I'll ever willing get into a race car without an integrated dash bar.  My anti intrusion bars, and dash bar are likely the reason I walked away from my crash.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


My input to this thread, instead of the redacting every line of code that Paul has typed that has included my name will be this.
I think I heard $20sh per race to rent one unit. 

Split between 3 drivers is $6.66 each.
Split between 4 drivers is $5.00 each.
Split between 5 drivers is $4.00 each.
Split between 6 drivers is $3.33 each.

Now for teams with two cars. Multiply by two.
 

Now for the guys that are participating in the thread that have not raced with ChampCar in a few years, yes, that may be pretty expensive. sorry. 

 

The good point of this thread is that Paul is not working on his car while he is distracted by a rule that does not go into effect until 1/1/2021.

 

It is 481 days until the FlagTronics system is required to be installed in your race car.

Or 1 year, 3 months, 24 days excluding the end date.

Or 15 months, 24 days excluding the end date.

  • Thanks 3
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it just me?? I'm sure it is actually, but this is a unit which apparently will facilitate live in-car telemetry to well funded teams who know how to maximize the provided data to their advantage.

 

We as a team are already a back marker, car choice and skill levels being contributed factors but as a whole we have been behind the curve for some time now.

 

However, now it appears that in the near future we will be racing against SkyNet too.

 

I suspect that if either my co-owner or I race in this series going forward it will be as arrive and drive participants.

 

Let someone else do the R&D, testing, maintenance...etc. etc.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Bill Strong said:

It is 481 days until the FlagTronics system is required to be installed in your race car.

Or 1 year, 3 months, 24 days excluding the end date.

Or 15 months, 24 days excluding the end date.

 

Lol Bill, I appreciate your sense of humor. Unfotunately, joke's on you because I can't work on my racecar while i'm at my day job! But can you please list the number of days until:

1. Flagtronics is available for sale
2. When flagtronics will have all it's advertised features which are planned with initial mandate
3. Days until cutoff date when final decision needs to made on whether to delay mandated use (and change the rule which requires it Jan 1 2020) or press forward?

Also, 'every line of code'? I may have been sleepy when I posted but I don't think I've yet typed raw java into a forum... :D

I hope it's clear through this that I genuinely CARE about the future of the series or I wouldn't voice my disagreement. The $150 has no serious impact on me in general but I want to feel our investments are actually valuable and we aren't duped into them. This is a 'member run' series....right? ...right?! (trying to convince myself)

Edited by Slugworks Paul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Lethal Cliff said:

Why did the power steering rule cost you money?

 

 

I bought a primary and spare electric steering components and columns to match that I had previously run on my car back when steering assist was driver comfort and open/free. I built custom bracketry and mounting, and wire harnesses. Those are all useless to me now as I don't have points available and if I did, I certainly wouldn't use them on what is solely driver comfort (sorry drivers)

I had to scrounge (and it was NOT easy) for used DSM power steering components - pump, lines, reservoir, etc. As I had scrapped all of them. Mitsubishi does not make really any of those components anymore, those cars aren't in junkyards and most enthusiasts deleted their power steering system long ago.

On that thought.. it was definitely much more than $400 in total, not even counting the time...

Edited by Slugworks Paul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Slugworks Paul said:

 

Also, 'every line of code'? I may have been sleepy when I posted but I don't think I've yet typed raw java into a forum...

 

I've seen bills computer.  It looks like the raw code from The Matrix.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said:

 

I bought a primary and spare electric steering components and columns to match that I had previously run on my car back when steering assist was driver comfort and open/free. I built custom bracketry and mounting, and wire harnesses. Those are all useless to me now as I don't have points available and if I did, I certainly wouldn't use them on what is solely driver comfort (sorry drivers)

I had to scrounge (and it was NOT easy) for used DSM power steering components - pump, lines, reservoir, etc. As I had scrapped all of them. Mitsubishi does not make really any of those components anymore, those cars aren't in junkyards and most enthusiasts deleted their power steering system long ago.

On that thought.. it was definitely much more than $400 in total, not even counting the time...

Just curious.  We have played around with the idea of running electric power steering.  But for now the drivers just have to man up!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Lethal Cliff said:

Just curious.  We have played around with the idea of running electric power steering.  But for now the drivers just have to man up!

 

We just got a larger steering wheel.  Problem solved!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lethal Cliff said:

Just curious.  We have played around with the idea of running electric power steering.  But for now the drivers just have to man up!

 

 

We ran the Volvo electric over hydraulic pump pushing a stock rack on the 240 for a while.  It was Awesome.  And super cheap to set up.  I think I was into the whole system for about $150.  That's 2 pumps, 2 hoses, and wiring.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm in favor of the benefits of the concept. $150 one time cost isn't bad. Yes, it adds up, but honestly if you're going to complain about the cost of safety so that you can go as fast as you possibly can, you shouldn't be racing. Just go back out to the street and see how expensive it gets.

In the past I was one of the biggest complainers about how previous management forced stuff down our throats and made unilateral decisions. To the point where I was censored regularly until the Chief Narcissist Officer left. But I'm sorry, you think this being introduced into the rules 2 years before it's being mandated isn't giving you enough notice and trying to sneak something through? Come on guys.

 

As someone who also works as a corner worker sometimes, My biggest concern is the logistics of this at the track. If it isn't utilized correctly and consistently at a track, it could be more dangerous than not having it.

Specifically in getting flaggers to use it correctly and consistently. They already have a ton of stuff to do and watch in the flag stands. Especially difficult and unrealistic to expect them to handle it when there is only one person per stand. Out West we almost never get more than one corner worker per stand. To implement this, I can realistically see a track mandating the cost of 2 corner workers minimum. Guess who pays that increased track fee? Maybe it's just us west coast tracks and all of the Central and East track flaggers never make a mistake or miss anything or call the wrong numbers of cars involved in incidents, etc. But I can see more mistakes being made with this if there is only one worker per stand.

I could see needing another person being needed in Race control as well just to manage this thing. If anyone has ever sat in race control, it's crazy how many things they juggle.

I truly hope this thing works well.  My suggestion would be the first 1/2 year of implementing it just have race control use it for full course yellows, red flags, black flags and black flag all.  Then you can try phasing it in with the corner workers to see how effectively they can use it for the next 1/2 year.  Only once you're sure it doesn't introduce inconsistencies, would I then roll it out as mandatory.  Just my $.02.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, lenbo211 said:

I'm in favor of the benefits of the concept. $150 one time cost isn't bad. Yes, it adds up, but honestly if you're going to complain about the cost of safety so that you can go as fast as you possibly can, you shouldn't be racing. Just go back out to the street and see how expensive it gets.

In the past I was one of the biggest complainers about how previous management forced stuff down our throats and made unilateral decisions. To the point where I was censored regularly until the Chief Narcissist Officer left. But I'm sorry, you think this being introduced into the rules 2 years before it's being mandated isn't giving you enough notice and trying to sneak something through? Come on guys.

@lenbo211 you brought up some very good points. 

But especially thanks for the common sense words above. 

Edited by mcoppola

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, lenbo211 said:

As someone who also works as a corner worker sometimes, My biggest concern is the logistics of this at the track. If it isn't utilized correctly and consistently at a track, it could be more dangerous than not having it.

Specifically in getting flaggers to use it correctly and consistently. They already have a ton of stuff to do and watch in the flag stands. Especially difficult and unrealistic to expect them to handle it when there is only one person per stand. Out West we almost never get more than one corner worker per stand. To implement this, I can realistically see a track mandating the cost of 2 corner workers minimum. Guess who pays that increased track fee? Maybe it's just us west coast tracks and all of the Central and East track flaggers never make a mistake or miss anything or call the wrong numbers of cars involved in incidents, etc. But I can see more mistakes being made with this if there is only one worker per stand.

I could see needing another person being needed in Race control as well just to manage this thing. If anyone has ever sat in race control, it's crazy how many things they juggle.

I truly hope this thing works well.  My suggestion would be the first 1/2 year of implementing it just have race control use it for full course yellows, red flags, black flags and black flag all.  Then you can try phasing it in with the corner workers to see how effectively they can use it for the next 1/2 year.  Only once you're sure it doesn't introduce inconsistencies, would I then roll it out as mandatory.  Just my $.02.

 

As a corner worker also working SCCA and IMSA races we've been needing two workers per station at every track for a long time just on a safety stance alone before adding in the new system.  So much can be missed (cars off, cutting corners, PUY) by having only the one worker per corner. The biggest problem with only having the one worker per station is if a car starts to head up into the station and the worker has their back turned to the car and the worker doesn't have the proper amount of time to get out of the way. I know even with two workers per station it doesn't cut the risk of danger to the workers but having one just increases the risks of more serious incidents happening. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Another question that comes to mind - for those who diligently attempt to get a jump on this rule and buy the device (whenever it is they become available), what happens if 'fixing issues' requires changing the hardware? Will those teams get an updated device for free, or will they have to buy another one?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said:

Another question that comes to mind - for those who diligently attempt to get a jump on this rule and buy the device (whenever it is they become available), what happens if 'fixing issues' requires changing the hardware? Will those teams get an updated device for free, or will they have to buy another one?

 

Did you get a free X2 when they discontinued the red brick?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ive heard no reports of anybody buying a flagtronics unit yet. During this trial period I believe they are being placed in cars and removed post race. 

I don't know for sure, maybe @vtjballeng can chime in, but it seems to me that they will not be for sale until the trial period is over and the units are ready for production and usage. Perhaps that's why there isn't a whole lot of info on their website about them - because they are not for sale yet and still undergoing development for another year and a half. 

Sorry to rain on the conspiracy theory parade. 

Edited by mcoppola

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, SonsOfIrony said:

 

Did you get a free X2 when they discontinued the red brick?


But my old red brick still works.. with no less capability and no issues with core functionality. Not understanding the comparison.

I'm saying if there's issues with core functionality, not adding new functionality. big big difference.

18 hours ago, mcoppola said:

Ive heard no reports of anybody buying a flagtronics unit yet. During this trial period I believe they are being placed in cars and removed post race. 

I don't know for sure, maybe @vtjballeng can chime in, but it seems to me that they will not be for sale until the trial period is over and the units are ready for production and usage. Perhaps that's why there isn't a whole lot of info on their website about them - because they are not for sale yet and still undergoing development for another year and a half. 

Sorry to rain on the conspiracy theory parade. 


If it's a trial period before the required period starts, do I get a guarantee of having one available to try? 

Edited by Slugworks Paul

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:

If it's a trial period before the required period starts, do I get a guarantee of having one available to try? 

 

I wish I could answer that Paul. As I posted before, for those interested in trying one out, I would definitely get in touch with Mike Chisek (email is best) and James Ballenger @vtjballeng a few weeks before your next race in order to request a unit. 

I agree that some of the safety related rule changes for 2019 required some additional expense and work, but I truly believe that ChampCar's Tech, BoD and management are observing our cars and race event situations, and are trying to do what they can to help improve our overall safety.

 

When we as TAC members raised questions about some of the 2019 rule changes / new requirements, we were given examples of part or installation failures that jeopardized someone's safety. Thus, we accepted the changes and moved on, knowing the intentions were meant to keep a dangerous situation from happening again. 

 

I feel that the implementation of the Flagtronics unit for 2021 is another step with the intention of reducing dangerous situations, and the goal of keeping us safer.

Edited by mcoppola
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...