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Production Roll Cages


The Aero Man
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In the rules, there are only descriptions for cars with at least a windshield. There seems to have been no expectation for somebody to cut the roof and windshield off of a car and race it. Would you still have to use the same cage construction and guidelines? 

 

SCCA has a few 'production' classes, in which its competitors make their cars very light. They cut off everything above the dashboard and have less of a cage on the passenger side. Would this be legal?

Image result for e production miata

 

Image result for e production miata

 

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13 minutes ago, The Aero Man said:

And?

We know we can run that cage, but can we use a production style cage? I know the rules would say otherwise, but it's not like people really follow them anyway. Right now the rules seem up for interpretation and messing with.

3.2.1. The main hoop (behind the driver, labeled “1” in Figure A) must be the full width of the cockpit for all cars. It must be one continuous length of tubing with smooth bends and no evidence of mandrel crimping or wall failure.

 

The BCCR seems pretty clear to me - but someone will always try to be a rules lawyer.

At roughly 1.7 lbs/foot for 1.75" tubing, is the 4-5 lbs saved really worth arguing about? SMH...

Edited by mcoppola
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1 hour ago, mcoppola said:

3.2.1. The main hoop (behind the driver, labeled “1” in Figure A) must be the full width of the cockpit for all cars. It must be one continuous length of tubing with smooth bends and no evidence of mandrel crimping or wall failure.

 

The BCCR seems pretty clear to me - but someone will always try to be a rules lawyer.

At roughly 1.7 lbs/foot for 1.75" tubing, is the 4-5 lbs saved really worth arguing about? SMH...

 

I think you just identified the question. 

 

The Full Width of the Cockpit - does this mean the original cabin area or what is currently being used as the "cockpit" area?  Say you move the fuel tank to the passenger seat area then bulk-head that area off, now your "cockpit" is no longer the full width of the car.

 

"The full width of the cockpit for all cars"  For all cars?  OK, that means we'll take the grid and make a main hoop that encompasses "All" the cars?  Is this width while they are in series or parallel?  Can we make it adjustable as cars retire from the race?  

 

And this may or may not be about the pounds saved, sometimes there are cars or chassis from other series that can be picked up for cheap if the cage meets the requirements.  The BCCR is about as clear as mud.

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Actually, the bccr is pretty clear on this.  It even has piktors to halp. 

 

I'm gonna go with....

 

....You already know the answer.  Just follow the same rules as everybody else's cage in champcar.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, MMiskoe said:

 

I think you just identified the question. 

 

The Full Width of the Cockpit - does this mean the original cabin area or what is currently being used as the "cockpit" area?  Say you move the fuel tank to the passenger seat area then bulk-head that area off, now your "cockpit" is no longer the full width of the car.

 

"The full width of the cockpit for all cars"  For all cars?  OK, that means we'll take the grid and make a main hoop that encompasses "All" the cars?  Is this width while they are in series or parallel?  Can we make it adjustable as cars retire from the race?  

 

And this may or may not be about the pounds saved, sometimes there are cars or chassis from other series that can be picked up for cheap if the cage meets the requirements.  The BCCR is about as clear as mud.

Yeah right, I'm sure the rule means that your main hoop had to cover all the cars next to you too. Some of you guys just continue to amaze me....lol

As Rob said, if some of you have trouble with reading comprehension, look at the pictures. SMH once again.

Edited by mcoppola
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53 minutes ago, MMiskoe said:

And this may or may not be about the pounds saved, sometimes there are cars or chassis from other series that can be picked up for cheap if the cage meets the requirements. 

Now this portion of the post is actually pretty intelligent, maybe I should have skipped the other part, or maybe you were trying to be funny, idk.

If someone was interested in racing an old SCCA Production car in our series, I would run the question by our Head of Tech for an answer.

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No, I am with Aeroman here, I don't know the answer, pictures or not.  Yes I was trying to be funny with saying the hoop had to be big enough to capture all the cars.

 

I "think" the answer on the main hoop is that it could be narrower than the original seating area of the car, but this is not clear.

 

The other part that would need clarification is that section 3.2 refers to the windshield line when describing where and how construct the A-pillar sections and the halo bar.  If the car doesn't have a windshield how do you interpret these requirements? 

 

So if you send an email to tech, get your answer, how do you then confirm that tech doesn't say something else when you're at the race?  Their answer may not be implicit in the rules and the tech inspector of the day might not have been copied on your email.

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It still needs a halo bar.  Just like the windsheildless car above.

 

Also, I'm pretty sure that there are not random tech inspectors at the races.  It's pretty much the same dudes.

 

Also, take the email with you.

 

10 years of champcar with the cages all looking pretty much the same is a good indication of what the cage should look like and what parts it should have.

 

If the cage looks significantly different than the pics in the bccr, you are probably barking up the wrong tree.

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@MMiskoe, I gotta ask ya, and I quote - So, we follow the "spirit" of the rules or what is written in the rules?

 

You want to rules-lawyer a guy to death for wanting to drill a hole in an OEM part, but the one area of the rules that is pretty explicit (and I would argue is more clear than mud), and deals with safety, you want to find creative interpretation with?

 

Page 7, 8, & 9 covers approved cage methods, with descriptions. With pictures.

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image.png.567df82f29d2964504d19a06b4c6c41b.png

 

This is the best picture I could find of the Probe that runs as a convertible.  They have done an excellent job using sheet metal to make a make-shift tonue (spelling, sorry) that covers the whole passenger side and rear hatch area.     But per the rules... they had to have cage above. 

 

image.png.ac51ccc6e89e1b11fad2e983fe5ad2c2.png

 

This 300Z also is running without a windshield... but it per the rules it also has the cage over the passenger side. 

 

All three of the examples you have been shown are of very fast cars, I am sure any of them would have run less cage if allowed but the rules on this issue are clear.

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As with most series, Champcar borrows heavily from the SCCA GCRs for many things and roll cage standards are certainly one of those. I would say that a cage that meets SCCA standards is very likely well designed and constructed and should at least be considered before being dismissed out of hand just because it looks different from the cages that have been seen in Chump/Champ over the years.

 

Since I doubt that most people want to search through the 690 pages to find it, here's the applicable excerpt from the SCCA rules:

 

9.4. ROLL CAGES FOR GT AND PRODUCTION BASED CARS

All cars must utilize a roll cage compliant with the following specifications. These specifications apply to all vehicles registered (issued an SCCA logbook) after 1/1/08. Cars registered before 1/1/08 may continue to compete with their previous roll cage as specified in Appendix I or comply with the following specifications. Cars registered as Production class cars prior to 1/1/08 may continue to use their existing roll cage per Appendix J or comply with the following specifications.

A. DEFINITION The roll cage consists of the main hoop, front hoop, side protection, and braces as specified in these rules.

B. MAIN HOOP 1. The main hoop (behind the driver) must be the full width of the cockpit for all cars. It must be one continuous length of tubing with smooth bends and no evidence of crimping or wall failure. The main hoop must maintain a single plane.

a. On all closed cars, the main hoop must be as close as possible to the roof and “B” pillars.

b. Open cars without the windshield frame may use an asymmetric main hoop. The main hoop must be full width to the passenger side of the car. On the passenger side of the car the hoop must be at least as high as the top of the rear corner of the door as illustrated in figure 9. 

 

See page 87 for the illustration: C:/Users/Owner/Downloads/GCR_-_January_2019 (3).pdf

 

The design objectives are the same: protect the driver from harm by ensuring that the vehicle can withstand specific lateral, longitudinal and vertical forces and not impinge on the driver's cockpit. At one time they required an engineer's certificate to that effect for a cage that didn't follow their general guidelines but I may be dating myself again.

Edited by mender
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16 hours ago, mcoppola said:

3.2.1. The main hoop (behind the driver, labeled “1” in Figure A) must be the full width of the cockpit for all cars. It must be one continuous length of tubing with smooth bends and no evidence of mandrel crimping or wall failure.

Note that the verbiage is the same as the SCCA rule.

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I emailed Jay about (symmetric) low forward hoop roll cages in February. His response:
 

Quote

No low hoop roll cages.

 

So my next car is looking like my last one (the #223 posted above).

cmpA5PhGw4yrT1eOlXbXCom4kxrZkRilhPlKaejs1e66JYiu8fT5ZZo6XfpwTJZtzhx_GStoyeDBSawH9HuM8_zVwP5TbXAIxtUgUcf10BgXZ8vh2uDw_igl5fv7EnYJgskQ7QmmsryC_vJQPJffhOEpBYFDt6VUXf7m5A3Ty4SYVdT7YVroFaUZ9RRDtiblx7jPdDQeMnnWdx_kgL2-vkf0Y7KNwNaZ6B3i7Wq-erOyyrw-SGTmzksgStkaaXmKuvH94sE3Afc5jMwuGyV6SoR2jaDW7haa3NT5nASu7s_1g-v6FfvVkA3yIP3nhmDb1EJhisRqUT-Ru2I3K14ZyVmf-fgV2E2o-6AcWc191ocv37ZgDFKewxSS4rAdY6xIKLLDCqBP90qMjR0jUPEI0vedlIgC54iniROIGDomxHOMHhGLJhwo15vPE8UQOkPGSbuV_-9_fR1FwbGhXsuHM579NpO7DoUS--mZhzWos2bw-y13Thefui_oCtbR7aIY9sqon-mO_fWlVmOapimCVkebkO9KIokS1FcZ1RpOeH7nbUyQHnhhFeBUfGaKMf77uoQkFCkfOZDT-FXeO0Q5O_ANqqSpowj7DDKzJnExgEAhM1bkUqRJUZucf4QXRpljjHpJcmqnhe96Bgf46Z08QgeFXDHjvUKPl4U0zvzJRMmvGg2ZUNx0Ask=w2597-h1947-no

You get some extra weight and drag with this cage design vs. a low forward hoop (production-style) cage. Is it still worth cutting the windshield off? I suspect that will depend on the track. At Sebring I'm thinking it'll be a disadvantage. For us it's mostly a preference thing.

Edited by Grant
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50 minutes ago, mender said:

Since I doubt that most people want to search through the 690 pages to find it, here's the applicable excerpt from the SCCA rules:

 

9.4. ROLL CAGES FOR GT AND PRODUCTION BASED CARS

All cars must utilize a roll cage compliant with the following specifications. These specifications apply to all vehicles registered (issued an SCCA logbook) after 1/1/08. Cars registered before 1/1/08 may continue to compete with their previous roll cage as specified in Appendix I or comply with the following specifications. Cars registered as Production class cars prior to 1/1/08 may continue to use their existing roll cage per Appendix J or comply with the following specifications.

A. DEFINITION The roll cage consists of the main hoop, front hoop, side protection, and braces as specified in these rules.

B. MAIN HOOP 1. The main hoop (behind the driver) must be the full width of the cockpit for all cars. It must be one continuous length of tubing with smooth bends and no evidence of crimping or wall failure. The main hoop must maintain a single plane.

a. On all closed cars, the main hoop must be as close as possible to the roof and “B” pillars.

b. Open cars without the windshield frame may use an asymmetric main hoop. The main hoop must be full width to the passenger side of the car. On the passenger side of the car the hoop must be at least as high as the top of the rear corner of the door as illustrated in figure 9. 

 

26 minutes ago, mender said:

Note that the verbiage is the same as the SCCA rule.

yes, SOME of the wording in the ChampCar BCCR is the same as SCCA's rulebook, Except the fact that the ChampCar BCCR does not make any mention, or therefore allowance, for the section that is bolded and underlined above.

Furthermore, after looking again at the picture in the original Post, that car does not even have an A-pillar bar on the driver side, and IMO would never pass per the current BCCR.

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12 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

 

yes, SOME of the wording in the ChampCar BCCR is the same as SCCA's rulebook, Except the fact that the ChampCar BCCR does not make any mention, or therefore allowance, for the section that is bolded and underlined above.

Furthermore, after looking again at the picture in the original Post, that car does not even have an A-pillar bar on the driver side, and IMO would never pass per the current BCCR.

As mentioned, Champcar borrows heavily but as you pointed out, doesn't use everything. At 10X as many pages as the Champcar GCRs,  there are quite a few things that were left out. ;) 

 

Just saying that it was a reasonable question given that the sanctioning body has been around a while. The recent CCER marketing strategy seems geared toward picking up a lot of the loose race cars that are sitting in garages. 

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4 hours ago, mender said:

Just saying that it was a reasonable question given that the sanctioning body has been around a while. The recent CCER marketing strategy seems geared toward picking up a lot of the loose race cars that are sitting in garages. 

This is the same type of thing with the dash bar. SCCA does not require a dash bar in a lot of its categories and requiring a dash bar will eliminate a lot of potential cars to race in CC. Adding a dash bar to a pre-existing cage is very hard and would require a lot of time and most likely money. It seems like there could be an easier solution to help include cars from other series in CC.

 

Also, there is no indication of the shape of the main hoop in the BCCR. It says that it has to be as wide as the cockpit, but nothing else. Where? Top? Bottom? It doesn't say it has to be symmetrical either. The only thing stopping you from running a production cage is the mention of a halo bar and the fact that CC has the right to not let you on the track.

 

Kinda sucks that you can't have that much creativity before getting shut down or the rules changed on you. 

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The guy asks a reasonable question and gets belittled. Im sorry some of you older chaps are getting worried new guys are coming in with cool ideas, but, is this really the way to get more people attracted to the series?

 

I have a major problem with the rules entirely in that there is a clause, of which I am too inebriated to look up at the moment, that implies something along the lines of "anything else is left up to the judgement of scrutineering". That could change per race, per year, hell, even EACH time you go through tech. This is supposed to be a budget, builders series and as such will require creativity to be competitive, but it seems like the consensus is a push to stay well within the rules just to make sure the guy teching your car who has had an especially bad day wont fail you for being creative with your interpretation of the rules. 

 

It points to lazy rule writing imho. Cut out the ambiguity and change that clause to: "anything not explicitly forbidden is open" and write a more more clear cut and defined rulebook that exceeds the page count of a children's book. If not, don't be so condescending when someone simply asks for clarification of a rulebook that can go from very explicit ("No front wings") to as clear as mud such as the previously mentioned cage rule. 

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5 minutes ago, pintodave said:

 

Re-read pp.7-9 in the morning, then post up any questions that aren't cleared up about cages 🤣🤣🤣

I'm pretty sure that's the entire point of this thread, seeing as I'm the one who started it. 

 

There isn't anything about where the halo bar (#9 in the picture) needs to be height wise. Just put in inside the dash right next to the dash bar and all of the requirements are met. It is feasible to run a production cage within the rules, but CC will just kick you out because they don't like it - As shown in exhibit A.

 

Exhibit A:

21 hours ago, Ray Franck said:

 NO 

 

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1 hour ago, The Aero Man said:

I'm pretty sure that's the entire point of this thread, seeing as I'm the one who started it. 

 

There isn't anything about where the halo bar (#9 in the picture) needs to be height wise. Just put in inside the dash right next to the dash bar and all of the requirements are met. It is feasible to run a production cage within the rules, but CC will just kick you out because they don't like it - As shown in exhibit A.

 

Exhibit A:

 

 

Yes, there is something in the rules that say where it should be "windshield line" edit: "UPPER WINDSCREEN LINE" (p.7 3.2.2 in both 2019 & 2020 BCCR). So you have no windshield? Free for all!!!! Oops, wait, there are those pesky PICTURES showing you approximately what your Cage should look like. 

 

For the record, I had no problem with your original question. Nothing wrong with asking. But then your piling on that it's a free-for-all and nobody follows the rules was a bit extreme. I'm the first one to be vocal about rules stability and things of that nature, but to lump a cage build issue in under the blanket statement "nobody follows the rules" just makes it sound like you are trolling. Then there were others who felt the need to chime in with their own creative interpretation of the cage rules after just being involved in another thread where they were b!tching about creative interpretation of the rules. SMH

 

Pages 7-9 are the clearest in the entire frikking rule book. 

 

Edited by pintodave
Edited for BCCR verbiage and section.
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On 10/14/2019 at 6:10 PM, The Aero Man said:

And?

We know we can run that cage, but can we use a production style cage? I know the rules would say otherwise, but it's not like people really follow them anyway. Right now the rules seem up for interpretation and messing with.

 

1 hour ago, The Aero Man said:

There isn't anything about where the halo bar (#9 in the picture) needs to be height wise.

 

 

Now I am convinced you are trolling. I'm confused how yesterday you understood the rules, yet 1 hr ago you don't understand the rules.

 

There is a fundamental difference in understanding the rules and asking for permission to break them and just not understanding the rules and needing clarification. So which is it?

 

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