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AWD to RWD Conversion Points


mug23
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I have a 2001 Audi A4 1.8T wagon and looking into building a Champcar race car. However, looking for a bit more reliability and just want rwd, I'm going to convert from awd to rwd. The conversion is very easy. 

 

I read the rule book but I couldn't find a section that discuss points for this mod. Anyone have any input on this? How many points will be added?

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3 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

That's 35 pts... if claiming trans and driveshaft swap.

 

If it's taking stuff off and welding the center diff, that's free....

And it’s not just the trans and driveshaft that are different.  From a points perspective I think you would need to claim the rear diff, halfshafts, close to a dozen suspension components, and a different subframe.  Pretty sure it’s a true Quattro with a Torsten center diff, so I would think welding would be possible.  I don’t know how much swapping to straight RWD is going to improve reliability, though.

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12 hours ago, mug23 said:

I have a 2001 Audi A4 1.8T wagon and looking into building a Champcar race car. However, looking for a bit more reliability and just want rwd, I'm going to convert from awd to rwd. The conversion is very easy. 

 

I read the rule book but I couldn't find a section that discuss points for this mod. Anyone have any input on this? How many points will be added?

If you can do the conversion by welding and cutting and no new parts it would be free.

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I run the DRVOLKS.com Audi TT  last year and WGI all wheel drive till it killed the the rear drive !!  Just run front wheel drive  with it welded and good axles or LSD . VW front wheel drives are for the most bullet proof. 

I just did a Lemon with a new power plant swap TDI/DSG  in drive mode front wheel drive open diff and set some supper fast laps and did most of the 14 hrs ( ME bad spun and slide by a yellow ) 

IMG_2740.JPG

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The mod from awd to rwd on the Quattro is actually pretty simple. Remove the transmission. Take the center diff out and just weld all the gears. Remove the front axles but you will need to keep the CV portion in the wheel bearing as the bearing will not function correctly without them. That's it. All the power will go to the rear.

 

The rear diff on the b5 a4 is an open diff so it would be wise to go with an rear lsd which will add points I believe. Otherwise, no swap or parts will need to be added. I guess this is a free mod?

 

The reason why I like to go rwd is less bit of drivetain loss. Not to have to worry about the front axle issues. I believe there is a better reliability gain going this route and also performance gain too? 

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On 10/21/2019 at 5:02 PM, mug23 said:

I have a 2001 Audi A4 1.8T wagon and looking into building a Champcar race car. However, looking for a bit more reliability and just want rwd, I'm going to convert from awd to rwd. The conversion is very easy. 

 

I read the rule book but I couldn't find a section that discuss points for this mod. Anyone have any input on this? How many points will be added?

 The Quattro system is not the reliability weak point on your car...focus on turbo heat issues and suspension alignment

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1 hour ago, mug23 said:

The mod from awd to rwd on the Quattro is actually pretty simple. Remove the transmission. Take the center diff out and just weld all the gears. Remove the front axles but you will need to keep the CV portion in the wheel bearing as the bearing will not function correctly without them. That's it. All the power will go to the rear.

 

The rear diff on the b5 a4 is an open diff so it would be wise to go with an rear lsd which will add points I believe. Otherwise, no swap or parts will need to be added. I guess this is a free mod?

 

The reason why I like to go rwd is less bit of drivetain loss. Not to have to worry about the front axle issues. I believe there is a better reliability gain going this route and also performance gain too? 

 

I have a fwd B5 with 200K miles.  I’ve had way more wheel bearing, tie rod, and ball joint issues than drivetrain.  I replaced both axles around 150k due to torn boots, that’s it.  Personally, I’d take the added traction over saving a couple pounds.  I don’t know how much power you save; it can’t be much.  But I have Quattro envy :)  All the added weight of a Quattro is still gonna be there.  Best of luck to you, though!

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58 minutes ago, karman1970 said:

 

I have a fwd B5 with 200K miles.  I’ve had way more wheel bearing, tie rod, and ball joint issues than drivetrain.  I replaced both axles around 150k due to torn boots, that’s it.  Personally, I’d take the added traction over saving a couple pounds.  I don’t know how much power you save; it can’t be much.  But I have Quattro envy :)  All the added weight of a Quattro is still gonna be there.  Best of luck to you, though!

By the sounds of your issues, I believe you may have the pre-facelift of b5? If so, they have smaller front wheels bearings than the later b5 a4's and the tie rods on the later models are improved design which have less issues too. The later larger wheel bearing seems to have less issues. The control arms are another issue with the b5's and I guess you can buy cheap ones and just replace them like every 2 events?

 

I like the Quattro for gravel and snow but for road course, I think awd is cheating, haha. You can just stomp on the gas out of the corner and let the awd do the work for you. With rwd, there is some skills needed for throttle input. I know a lot of people will say to get a BMW but I don't want a BMW. I like my Audi's.

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44 minutes ago, mug23 said:

 

I like the Quattro for gravel and snow but for road course, I think awd is cheating, haha. You can just stomp on the gas out of the corner and let the awd do the work for you. With rwd, there is some skills needed for throttle input. I know a lot of people will say to get a BMW but I don't want a BMW. I like my Audi's.


Any potential advantage you think awd might provide is outweighed (pun intended) by the poor power to weight ratio the Audi has compared to most other cars in the race. Ask me how I know.

 

however I will say that my last race in the rain was super fun with Quattro 

Edited by QuaTTro
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7 minutes ago, QuaTTro said:


Any potential advantage you think awd might provide is outweighed (pun intended) by the poor power to weight ratio the Audi has compared to most other cars in the race. Ask me how I know.

 

however I will say that my last race in the rain was super fun with Quattro 

Well, I also had an Subaru STI as my old track/race car so that where my statement about the potential advantage of the awd. The STI has a turbo swap so the power to weight ratio is way different than the A4 1.8t for sure but it doesn't matter as awd still have advantage coming out of the corner unless you have absolutely very poor power to weight ratio. 

 

You are right about the advantage of awd in not so perfect road surface.

Edited by mug23
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1 minute ago, mug23 said:

Well, I also have an Subaru STI as my old track/race car so that where my statement about the potential advantage of the awd. The STI has a turbo swap so the power to weight ratio is way different than the A4 1.8t for sure. 

 

You are right about the advantage of awd in not so perfect road surface.

Also strange is how the VPI table lists the fwd A4 as lower Points than the quattro when the fwd is the faster car due to lower weight.

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QuaTTro I feel the points on the Audi TT is way to high  475 for a front wheel drive and now 525 for a all wheel drive. When you can run a Corvette for 450 points that is ten time the car of a TT. And GM spent tens of millions on that year car . please Email mike on this ever one it should be 400/425 AWD.   It look like my car is the only TT to finish one of these races  out of 2 TT?

I have finished 3 so far DF on 2 others .

My take on this is the Audi TT 4 wheel drive needs a lot of work and cash to make it last.

AWD in the rain the best way to go.

FWD for most of the tracks is the way to go in the VW/Audi product.

For your first Audi/VW car here is my take 

  • Front wheel drive LSD or welded
  • good axles
  • rework roll center 
  • rework bump steer
  • safety wire ever thing
  • turbo build a bridge around it to hold it from moving ( when you can lift the car from it you did it right)
  •  

Please email Mike on it

4Yu0Bt2.jpg

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12 hours ago, mug23 said:

The mod from awd to rwd on the Quattro is actually pretty simple. Remove the transmission. Take the center diff out and just weld all the gears. Remove the front axles but you will need to keep the CV portion in the wheel bearing as the bearing will not function correctly without them. That's it. All the power will go to the rear.

 

Is the rear diff beefy enough to handle all the power?

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As a fellow victim, er racer, I mean builder of a TT Quattro, turbo gaskets, engine temps, front axles and drivelines are all weak points that need addressing.  We removed the drive shaft during the race at Charlotte so we could at least have the car see a checkered flag and the handling was much improved.  We have since removed the rear diff altogether and used the CV joint hub as the mounting mechanism for the rear wheels.  Honestly did not think about doing it RWD, might have to consider that.  

 

We have/are struggling with engine temps on long full throttle applications.  Enough so that we are taking a break to focus on our current E30 and a new E30 build as well.

 

Would love to find out how folks keep their turbo's and engines cool enough.

 

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10 hours ago, mug23 said:

By the sounds of your issues, I believe you may have the pre-facelift of b5? If so, they have smaller front wheels bearings than the later b5 a4's and the tie rods on the later models are improved design which have less issues too. The later larger wheel bearing seems to have less issues. The control arms are another issue with the b5's and I guess you can buy cheap ones and just replace them like every 2 events?

 

I like the Quattro for gravel and snow but for road course, I think awd is cheating, haha. You can just stomp on the gas out of the corner and let the awd do the work for you. With rwd, there is some skills needed for throttle input. I know a lot of people will say to get a BMW but I don't want a BMW. I like my Audi's.

 

Yeah it’s a 2000 Passat.  2001.5 was the Passat face lift, I don’t know if that lines up with the A4s or not.  2001 means you should have the 180hp 1.8T instead of my 150hp?

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  • Ok  on  what I found is most tuners on the 1.8T have no clue run the turbo to hot. www.EFIEXPRESS.com in NH got it going on. 
  • Upgrade the radiator a must
  • ducking work all the air going through it 
  • hood vent behind radiator
  • fan hard wired hot
  • wideband O2 upgrade

Drop our points where they should be 400/425

 

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4 hours ago, tommytipover said:

 

Is the rear diff beefy enough to handle all the power?

There are few aftermarket options of lsd you can swap range from $900 - over 1k to replace the rear open diff. I don't think I will want to leave it as an open diff for the rwd conversion. 

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2 hours ago, DRVOLKS said:
  • Ok  on  what I found is most tuners on the 1.8T have no clue run the turbo to hot. www.EFIEXPRESS.com in NH got it going on. 
  • Upgrade the radiator a must
  • ducking work all the air going through it 
  • hood vent behind radiator
  • fan hard wired hot
  • wideband O2 upgrade

Drop our points where they should be 400/425

 

 

I'm not sure why you feel 400/425 are correct, as that is still way too high.   A stock first gen Miata will beat a stock Audi TT in these races, so I would think the TT would be closer to 200-250 points.

 

Also, the quattro AWD system is not an actual advantage in these races so if the values need to be different between fwd and awd....then awd should be lower.

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What's the pwr and how much fuel does it use?

 

I would think a vehicle that new (edit: they are not that new...  1998) and with that much tech should still be a bit higher valued than a miata.

 

Isn't a 1.8l miata like 300 pts? 

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