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My take on the BOD election contenders


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  • Technical Advisory Committee
1 hour ago, Jer said:

Let's do a scenario, I'd like your response.  A new swap comes on the scene.  Never seen before, but it's a killer-easy swap, below 500 points, and decimates all the races its entered.  Five more just like it appear, and now they are winning ALL the races handily.  In stock trim this car is a non-contender, in fact it's a bottom ten car in stock trim.  Yes some people are still racing it.  We use  90% of the weight of a model according to the original formula, and it points out under 500.  Everyone is up in arms over this new winning swap.  What do we do?  

I'm sure this post will tick off some people, but here we go anyway... I will respectfully post this as food for thought.

Coming up with what's IMO an unrealistic scenario is not addressing the can of worms that was opened up by ignoring real weights and going to an arbitrary value, SPV.

I believe the scenario described is unrealistic for 2 reasons: If it was doable, somebody would have already done it. There are a lot of good builders in this series, and a lot of guys that study the VPI list, weights list, and play with the calculator enough that they would have found this magical combination already. If it is possible to come up with a combo like you described, I doubt it would be killer easy, and only a select few teams/builders would have the capability to pull it off. So i doubt if there would be enough of them built to win ALL the races handily.

 

The 2nd reason is that IF the swap calculator and it's values had not been molested, it was designed to limit power to weight ratio, thus making it very unlikely that a certain build would dominate, because it's potential would be limited by it's power to weight ratio the original intent of the swap calculator.

The only way this scenario could become true is if a given engine that was swapped in used a very low horsepower variant as it's base hp, when in fact much higher hp is capable with a few minor undetectable changes.

This possibility was considered at one time by our CEO. As I recall, he submitted a petition a few years back that would have allowed zero modifications to a swapped in engine, but it was voted down.

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Jer what you ask is just truly hypothetical, with rules set as they are and tech boys doing there job not sure it would ever happen cause as Mike Coppola has said above this

group is made up of really smart and super strong builders and it would have happened already.

 

To me it seems simple enough to fix the weights to the 90% and be done with it, I'm sure the TAC guys could go right down the list and fix it. 

Wouldn't it be nice to stop all the bitching on weights and then we could hear something on a new topic. How long has this been going on now? 2 years

 

Mr Coppola are you now the super volunteer??? We might be right there with you.

Edited by 55mini
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4 hours ago, Jer said:

Let's do a scenario, I'd like your response.  A new swap comes on the scene.  Never seen before, but it's a killer-easy swap, below 500 points, and decimates all the races its entered.  Five more just like it appear, and now they are winning ALL the races handily.  In stock trim this car is a non-contender, in fact it's a bottom ten car in stock trim.  Yes some people are still racing it.  We use  90% of the weight of a model according to the original formula, and it points out under 500.  Everyone is up in arms over this new winning swap.  What do we do?  

 

You mean like the MR2?

 

Oh wait, if it used the correct weight, or took the Turbo VPI like it's supposed to, then it wouldn't be an issue.....

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2 hours ago, Jer said:

Let's do a scenario, I'd like your response.  A new swap comes on the scene.  Never seen before, but it's a killer-easy swap, below 500 points, and decimates all the races its entered.  Five more just like it appear, and now they are winning ALL the races handily.  In stock trim this car is a non-contender, in fact it's a bottom ten car in stock trim.  Yes some people are still racing it.  We use  90% of the weight of a model according to the original formula, and it points out under 500.  Everyone is up in arms over this new winning swap.  What do we do?  

 

It depends on the model.

 

If it is the MR2 then leave it and wait for the rest of the field to catch up.

If it is the 400SX then make rules banning it by raising the 240SX and restrict engine choices only from vehicles on the table.

If it is the TBird then add 100 VPI even if it hasn't won but did lead one race for a bit that one time at a hp track, if it actually does win then add like 1,000 points.

If it is the turbo Miata then just leave it till the championship comes west.  I so hope it shows up and has a good race.

 

What should be done?  Tech carefully reviews it to ensure it is legal.  TAC reviews its Tech sheet to see what should be done to rein it in.  Maybe raise the VPI by 10-50 points, maybe remove the free header rule, I think I saw some say there is free intake ruling because it doesn't fit under the hood - ridiculous and get rid of that as there is no rule requiring a hood if you have a windshield (all vehicles on the list came with both a hood and windshield, pick one to retain).  The 10% rule is not a hard number, it is ~10% except for a certain model.  Do not lower 70+ other vehicles.  Is that enough tools to adjust with?

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On 11/2/2019 at 5:06 PM, wvumtnbkr said:

Every car that swaps that can not use stock exhaust manifolds can use manifolds that fit.  Not just miata and 240.

 

Sorry for the derail,and  I have not read the whole thread here, but can someone point me to where this has been documented?  I keep hearing it but have not seen it in print.

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7 hours ago, Jer said:

Let's do a scenario, I'd like your response.  A new swap comes on the scene.  Never seen before, but it's a killer-easy swap, below 500 points, and decimates all the races its entered.  Five more just like it appear, and now they are winning ALL the races handily.  In stock trim this car is a non-contender, in fact it's a bottom ten car in stock trim.  Yes some people are still racing it.  We use  90% of the weight of a model according to the original formula, and it points out under 500.  Everyone is up in arms over this new winning swap.  What do we do?  

Okay, Jer, here's my opinion.

 

Whack the mole.

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19 hours ago, Jer said:

Let's do a scenario, I'd like your response.  A new swap comes on the scene.  Never seen before, but it's a killer-easy swap, below 500 points, and decimates all the races its entered.  Five more just like it appear, and now they are winning ALL the races handily.  In stock trim this car is a non-contender, in fact it's a bottom ten car in stock trim.  Yes some people are still racing it.  We use  90% of the weight of a model according to the original formula, and it points out under 500.  Everyone is up in arms over this new winning swap.  What do we do?  

I'll play along and flesh out your scenario.

 

Somebody builds a 100 point '76 Vega with the big gas tank and uses the Z09 suspension and Wilwood brakes. After stripping it down to the absolute minimum of structural integrity at 1800 lbs or about 80% of the lightest production model and adding so much aero it has a top speed of 85 mph downhill, the car handles so well that it embarrasses Miatas as it drives around them on the outside (or inside) of every corner. The braking performance is just as impressive, going 30% deeper with perfect balance. But the car is so s l o w in a straight line that everyone passes it on the next straight. Clearly, it is at the bottom of the PWR chart and GM was a little optimistic even at 84 hp. DRS helps a bit but not enough to get it out of the bottom ten. ;) 

 

Someone decides to swap in an LE5 Ecotec engine for 56 points and manages to make 180 whp with the free header and CAI, allowing the car to not only keep up on the straights but out-accelerate the big power cars, transforming the car into an all-dominating monster that prompts five other teams to yank Vegas from swamps and duplicate this stunning combo.

 

One team asks Champ to put the 2011 Chev Orlando on the VPI list so they can use the LAF direct injection 174 hp version and get a little more power while using less fuel.  They make 190 whp with the free header and CAI. The new teams proceed to win all the races they enter handily. 

 

Everyone is up in arms over the new swap. Faced with alienating 64 of the 70 teams that typically show up at each race by allowing the swapped cars to continue unfettered, Champ decides to:

 

1. Do nothing, which basically forces everyone who wants to compete to build identical cars, resulting in essentially a spec series built around that car. Seems like a good idea because it's a dead-easy, cheap swap and accessible to everyone. 

2. Give out free parts to everyone in hopes that somehow Vegas with Ecotec engines can't benefit from the same free parts.

3. Lower the VPi of all the other cars and hope that someone finds a way to build a different unicorn car - which, when it happens, makes it a two car series instead of just a one car series. Those two cars end up forming well over 50% of the entries at any given race.

4. Put in a rule just for those cars requiring a production engine only, so no swaps or it's EC. One team takes their ball and goes home; the other five swapped teams now run in EC and still take home trophies. The rest of the teams race in their respective classes and everyone has fun. No one has changed their car, the same cars are still racing each other, and the officials are praised for keeping Champ a place where concerns are heard and acted on.

 

To me, only #4 makes sense. History shows that #1-3 didn't work.

 

Then a professional foreign engine builder gets a Cosworth Vega engine, opens up the ring gap on the otherwise stock 8.3:1 engine with fully forged internals, bolts on a turbo with intercooler for 125 points and makes 230 whp in an 1800 lb car that has an 18.1 gallon fuel cell, which starts the cycle all over again. Champ asks, "What do we do?":P

Edited by mender
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10 hours ago, whitney said:

 

Sorry for the derail,and  I have not read the whole thread here, but can someone point me to where this has been documented?  I keep hearing it but have not seen it in print.

It was in the first red flag video that covered swaps.

 

Not sure why it was never written down.

 

I feel weird about it with my car, so I claim headers.

 

To be clear, there was no way a fwd minivan engine exhaust was gonna work in a rwd chassis.  So I made my own.

 

I picked the swap, so it's my choice to use that engine and all the pros and cons that come with it.  Therefore....  I claim the header.

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13 hours ago, SonsOfIrony said:

 

You mean like the MR2?

 

Oh wait, if it used the correct weight, or took the Turbo VPI like it's supposed to, then it wouldn't be an issue.....

I do have a dog in this fight...

 

That being said, using the turbo values is odd.  Those are special models, not just highest regular model vpi.

 

That would mean all 3 series BMW need to use the m3 vpi when swapping.

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17 hours ago, mcoppola said:

I'm sure this post will tick off some people, but here we go anyway... I will respectfully post this as food for thought.

Coming up with what's IMO an unrealistic scenario is not addressing the can of worms that was opened up by ignoring real weights and going to an arbitrary value, SPV.

I believe
(...)

 

I'll take this one step further - if the swap causes the car to be dominant, and it's within the PWR guidelines used accurately in the calculator, then perhaps the base car is just underperforming, and has a lot of un-realized potential anyway? In this scenario you'd raise the VPI.

Edited by Slugworks Paul
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  • Technical Advisory Committee
16 hours ago, 55mini said:

Mr Coppola are you now the super volunteer??? We might be right there with you.

I didn't even the list the 2-3 times I volunteered with WRL too.

But yeah Mark, you're right - you guys do a great job volunteering too. I like the fact that your whole team comes out and does it together.

Also, a great way to save on your race entry fees!

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2 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I do have a dog in this fight...

 

That being said, using the turbo values is odd.  Those are special models, not just highest regular model vpi.

 

That would mean all 3 series BMW need to use the m3 vpi when swapping.

 

I'm not saying that both should be done.  I'm saying you shouldn't be able to have your cake and eat it too.

 

If you use the turbo swap weight, then you should use the turbo VPI.  If you're not using the turbo VPI, then you should use the lightest available weight, -10% because that's how the car is raced.

 

We don't race cars with Bose stereos, or heated seats.  The delta between heaviest weight vs lightest is most often the difference between optional and standard equipment that will be removed for racing whether swapping or not.

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5 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I do have a dog in this fight...

 

That being said, using the turbo values is odd.  Those are special models, not just highest regular model vpi.

 

That would mean all 3 series BMW need to use the m3 vpi when swapping.

Too bad the M3 isn’t on list. 

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2 minutes ago, red0 said:

 

Vote 6 times?.......   I'm from Chicago, my great uncle that died 17 years ago voted 6 times. 

We're out in Morris.........So we're familiar on how Cook County keeps electing the crooked democrats!  

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On 11/9/2019 at 5:03 PM, Jer said:

Let's do a scenario, I'd like your response.  A new swap comes on the scene.  Never seen before, but it's a killer-easy swap, below 500 points, and decimates all the races its entered.  Five more just like it appear, and now they are winning ALL the races handily.  In stock trim this car is a non-contender, in fact it's a bottom ten car in stock trim.  Yes some people are still racing it.  We use  90% of the weight of a model according to the original formula, and it points out under 500.  Everyone is up in arms over this new winning swap.  What do we do?  

 

We dont need hypotheticals to solve current issues we are experiencing now.    Fix the current issues that were created behind closed doors unannounced.   I dont see why this series resists so hard to fix or admit to issues its created for itself.  Put everyone back on the same rule set and go from there.  

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42 minutes ago, hotrod said:

Is everyone done Voting?

Do I need to pollute these pages with more political poo & propaganda?

Are there any more questions for the four of us running for the BoD?

Did you vote at least 6 times?   

 

Not voted yet, how do I vote again?

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19 minutes ago, Snake said:

 

We dont need hypotheticals to solve current issues we are experiencing now.    Fix the current issues that were created behind closed doors unannounced.   I dont see why this series resists so hard to fix or admit to issues its created for itself.  Put everyone back on the same rule set and go from there.  

I've stated this before it's time to take the hit and adjust the VPI & put all the verbal tech rules in the rule book in black & white ie engine swap headers. (In my opinion all headers should be points if it didn't come on the car.)

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 11/4/2019 at 1:22 PM, E. Tyler Pedersen said:

 

I would recommend that you give us ONE source that we can pick all of these models and makes from for a reliable source which was not in the last petition.  Per TAC notes when we discussed it was hard to find ONE reliable source to pick and choose to get all of the weights for every make and model.  

 

Also I would recommend working with @mcoppola as he was going to write something up as well and is on the TAC and can help provide good insight.  

 

Thank You for bringing this up. I am having an issue with the information supplied by the current recommended "sources." One of my cars isn't listed at either site., One of my other cars has my car but not the car I would be charged points for which is the CRX Si which is listed as D16 in the VPI. At last I think that's what it means. But how do I know? My 3rd back up car I haven't looked. All of this makes the VPI all too subjective.

 

Wikipedia has had the most info I could find on my car but is it accurate? Are any of them accurate? Maybe individual car registries that keep detailed info on the factories productions could work? Could the classic car show people help with sources? Or do we think about Menders idea of actually weighing cars that come to race to make adjustments? I am leaning towards building our own 'Real World" database. The shortfall there is when new cars come to the series. To start we could only adjust for who is here now and deal with new comers as they roll in.  Advanced weight reduction with hand tools would have to be excluded in the numbers. Then tech inspectors come under scrutiny. Is that just moving the problem to someone else? I don't envy those who have to fix this. This is an information overload nightmare.

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On 11/9/2019 at 4:03 PM, Jer said:

Let's do a scenario, I'd like your response.  A new swap comes on the scene.  Never seen before, but it's a killer-easy swap, below 500 points, and decimates all the races its entered.  Five more just like it appear, and now they are winning ALL the races handily.  In stock trim this car is a non-contender, in fact it's a bottom ten car in stock trim.  Yes some people are still racing it.  We use  90% of the weight of a model according to the original formula, and it points out under 500.  Everyone is up in arms over this new winning swap.  What do we do?  

Have you been spying on me? I have one that I believe could meet this criteria. 150 points with swap. It is a bottom half car for sure and has a logbook. I named it Phoenix. Even with suspension and turbo I have over 100 points left to play with.

Edited by SpeedMaverick
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On 11/11/2019 at 4:56 PM, hotrod said:

Go to this link.............Vote ChampCar BoD 2020

 

images 3.jpg

 

Please don't take offense, But using that logo might hurt more than help. First thought that crossed my mind is you lost me there. But then I had to stop myself and think about what I was judging you on and it wasn't fair. As someone who has won an election in another venue, I thought I would share my thoughts on my initial reaction...

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10 hours ago, SpeedMaverick said:

Have you been spying on me? I have one that I believe could meet this criteria. 150 points with swap. It is a bottom half car for sure and has a logbook. I named it Phoenix. Even with suspension and turbo I have over 100 points left to play with.

The Vega example I posted is a very real possibility but I have very little doubt that it would survive more than two races before the wrath of Champ came upon it and it would be banished for daring to upset the status quo. Be careful what you build, the rules are more fluid for the off-models and can be adjusted quickly despite the touted rules stability. See the 2020 VPi list that IMHO should only get changed once a year - but of course I'm also of the opinion that certain corrections that has been requested for the last three years should be made first.

 

The worry that I have is that only certain moles get whacked while others are considered acceptable and even the "norm". Too bad the membership can't vote directly on what changes should be made.  

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