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Slugworks Paul

UNOFFICIAL - Barber protest?

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Welp, this thread has been shoved off in the general discussion though it is race specific... and my post in the official post race thread got deleted.

Hope we continue to get exposure and corrective action from the staff.

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1 hour ago, Huggy said:

 

 

 

 

By the data,

 

Saturday:

601: 1:42.774 (FTD)

602: 1:43.581

Sunday:

601:  1:45:503

602:  1:45:210

 

For comparison, some other random cars:

#160

Saturday:

1:49.325

Sunday:

1:47.731

 

#108

Saturday:

1:44.492

Sunday

1:45.207

 

#787

Saturday:

1:48.269

Sunday:

1:44.517


And based on what’s been said between 602 and 601, one car made changes and the other car took laps... correct?

 

Lap times close between the two cars both days. And the 601 still finished 2nd.

 

Guess those parts weren’t any real advantage after all.

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Since this has not been deleted yet I want to ask a silly question and also ask R3R to comment if they wish.

 

We have a car that takes the win on Saturday and gets to impound and has a competitor try to protest but is not allowed because of a technicality of no form, which from

other races as been allowed. Wining team is asked to put stock parts back on said car for Sunday.

 

Sunday the R3r car makes it to podium once again and finishes with a second place with stock parts.

 

I have to ask what is wrong with this picture?????????????????????????????????????????????????????/

 

As was pointed out by Paul this is all about rules enforcement and by changing all the parts back to stock R3r has shown the car was not stock as raced on Saturday.

In my book that alone is wrong and they should have been dq'd on Saturday and then come back to win on Sunday. If you add the control arms and springs they would have 

been at what 580 or 560 points? So take the number of finished lap and drop them by 6-8 laps. All done and over until the next day.

 

Did I miss anything and why did our self policing rules not work????????????

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1 minute ago, Butters said:

 

Guess those parts weren’t any real advantage after all.

That is NOT the point.

 

And a half second improvement in lap time can be significant.

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1 minute ago, 55mini said:

Since this has not been deleted yet I want to ask a silly question and also ask R3R to comment if they wish.

 

We have a car that takes the win on Saturday and gets to impound and has a competitor try to protest but is not allowed because of a technicality of no form, which from

other races as been allowed. Wining team is asked to put stock parts back on said car for Sunday.

 

Sunday the R3r car makes it to podium once again and finishes with a second place with stock parts.

 

I have to ask what is wrong with this picture?????????????????????????????????????????????????????/

 

As was pointed out by Paul this is all about rules enforcement and by changing all the parts back to stock R3r has shown the car was not stock as raced on Saturday.

In my book that alone is wrong and they should have been dq'd on Saturday and then come back to win on Sunday. If you add the control arms and springs they would have 

been at what 580 or 560 points? So take the number of finished lap and drop them by 6-8 laps. All done and over until the next day.

 

Did I miss anything and why did our self policing rules not work????????????

Great point.

 

Also, did they change all the parts out, or just the springs?

 

Is there any confirmation that they were totally legal on sunday?

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1 hour ago, JCrist said:

At this point here’s my thought since no one will say otherwise that was involved. 

Someone walked by and, like someone did to us at VIR, pointed at something and said “that ain’t legal”. Tech said “you protesting?”, they said “yeah”, tech said “where’s your paperwork?”. Off to the internet to burn Chump down. 

3hhmb9.jpg

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According to Tuttle on Facebook, all the competitors near the top had the chance to protest and declined.  That would blow a hole in the idea that the protest was rejected because a printed for was not available.  

Edited by LuckyKid

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Just now, LuckyKid said:

According to Tuttle on Facebook, all the competitors near the top had the chance to protest and declined.  That would blow a hole in the idea that the protest was rejected because a printed for was not available.  

Was that referring to Saturday or Sunday's impound?  

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1 minute ago, miatainium said:

Was that referring to Saturday or Sunday's impound?  

He doesn't say, but its implying Saturday, because he said they removed the non-stock parts for Sunday.

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3 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

That would blow a hole in the idea that the protest

Not necessarily, Jay always ask if anyone has a protest at impound . 

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27 minutes ago, 55mini said:

Since this has not been deleted yet I want to ask a silly question and also ask R3R to comment if they wish.

 

We have a car that takes the win on Saturday and gets to impound and has a competitor try to protest but is not allowed because of a technicality of no form, which from

other races as been allowed. Wining team is asked to put stock parts back on said car for Sunday.

 

Sunday the R3r car makes it to podium once again and finishes with a second place with stock parts.

 

I have to ask what is wrong with this picture?????????????????????????????????????????????????????/

 

As was pointed out by Paul this is all about rules enforcement and by changing all the parts back to stock R3r has shown the car was not stock as raced on Saturday.

In my book that alone is wrong and they should have been dq'd on Saturday and then come back to win on Sunday. If you add the control arms and springs they would have 

been at what 580 or 560 points? So take the number of finished lap and drop them by 6-8 laps. All done and over until the next day.

 

Did I miss anything and why did our self policing rules not work????????????

This is really a great question.  Isn’t making changes for day two an admission of guilt??  Shouldn’t there be a penalty for running outside the rules????  

 

I don't get it.....   

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Butters said:


LOL

 

Ok then. 

What do you think the point is?

 

Should the rulebook just say...  do anything you want as long as your laptimes are similar?

 

Following the rules is the point.

 

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

According to Tuttle on Facebook, all the competitors near the top had the chance to protest and declined.  That would blow a hole in the idea that the protest was rejected because a printed for was not available.  

A team previously caught cheating says cheating wasn't that big a deal then OK.

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This is what really upsets me.  Sorry, I'm 100% not involved with what happened at Barber, and I should probably stay the hell out of this, but this is what I do know:

 

The team in question was found to be running Bilstein Coilovers, adjustable rear toe-links (No photo), and GT3RS adjustable control arms at Indy.  Photos from Saturday Impound.  They were not protested on Saturday.

 

It was brought to Tech's attention during the race on Sunday when it became apparent they were in podium contention.  

The team was alerted privately, and they elected to have a "flat tire" with a few laps to go, and fall off of the podium on Sunday.

At the request of Champcar, This was kept quiet for the team and Champcar's benefit.  

 

This was done with the implied promise that it was resolved and would not come up again.  It appears that the implied trust has been broken.

IMG-2256.JPG

IMG-2255.JPG

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1 minute ago, wvumtnbkr said:

What do you think the point is?

 

Should the rulebook just say...  do anything you want as long as your laptimes are similar?

 

Following the rules is the point.

 

 

 

 


Do you also drive the exact speed limit whenever you’re on the street because it’s the law?

 

Theres the “spirit” and the “letter”. 

 

The spirit is to even the playing field and eliminate unfair advantages. 


A part changed out for performance gain is a violation of both. A part changed to make an already available adjustment slightly easier to adjust (But does not otherwise enhance the adjustment) does not violate the spirit. Hence likely why the lead teams who stood to benefit (like Tuttle posted) opted not to file the protest. In the end it was a technicality that gave no real advantage.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Huggy said:

This is what really upsets me.  Sorry, I'm 100% not involved with what happened at Barber, and I should probably stay the hell out of this, but this is what I do know:

 

The team in question was found to be running Bilstein Coilovers, adjustable rear toe-links (No photo), and GT3RS adjustable control arms at Indy.  Photos from Saturday Impound.  They were not protested on Saturday.

 

It was brought to Tech's attention during the race on Sunday when it became apparent they were in podium contention.  

The team was alerted privately, and they elected to have a "flat tire" with a few laps to go, and fall off of the podium on Sunday.

At the request of Champcar, This was kept quiet for the team and Champcar's benefit.  

 

This was done with the implied promise that it was resolved and would not come up again.  It appears that the implied trust has been broken.

IMG-2256.JPG

IMG-2255.JPG

If this is true, why the he'll would this have been kept secret from everybody?

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1 minute ago, Butters said:


Do you also drive the exact speed limit whenever you’re on the street because it’s the law?

 

Theres the “spirit” and the “letter”. 

 

The spirit is to even the playing field and eliminate unfair advantages. 


A part changed out for performance gain is a violation of both. A part changed to make an already available adjustment slightly easier to adjust (But does not otherwise enhance the adjustment) does not violate the spirit. Hence likely why the lead teams who stood to benefit (like Tuttle posted) opted not to file the protest. In the end it was a technicality that gave no real advantage.

 

 

Um, what?

 

I'll make this real simple for you.

 

There is a specific rule about coil springs.

 

It was violated and not claimed.

 

Team is cheating.

 

Do you see how that equation doesn't involve intent or actual end result?

 

They violated the rules.  End of discusion.

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1 minute ago, wvumtnbkr said:

If this is true, why the he'll would this have been kept secret from everybody?

Exactly...and this is why my team won't run with CC, still waiting for this culture to change, will it ever? 

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8 minutes ago, Huggy said:

This is what really upsets me.  Sorry, I'm 100% not involved with what happened at Barber, and I should probably stay the hell out of this, but this is what I do know:

 

The team in question was found to be running Bilstein Coilovers, adjustable rear toe-links (No photo), and GT3RS adjustable control arms at Indy.  Photos from Saturday Impound.  They were not protested on Saturday.

 

It was brought to Tech's attention during the race on Sunday when it became apparent they were in podium contention.  

The team was alerted privately, and they elected to have a "flat tire" with a few laps to go, and fall off of the podium on Sunday.

At the request of Champcar, This was kept quiet for the team and Champcar's benefit.  

 

This was done with the implied promise that it was resolved and would not come up again.  It appears that the implied trust has been broken.

IMG-2256.JPG

IMG-2255.JPG

 

This is NOT what they ran at Barber.

On 11/23/2019 at 9:04 PM, morganf said:


For reference: In order to protest you must have protest forms filled out and $50  https://champcar.org/mainweb/pdf/2019TechProtestForm.pdf
image.thumb.png.ed44f1c5dd6c00b5fb3c9a9dbe297a64.png 

 

 

Top Right Yellow Bilstein is what they Ran, That is an exact pic from the race. 

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5 minutes ago, Butters said:


Do you also drive the exact speed limit whenever you’re on the street because it’s the law?

 

Theres the “spirit” and the “letter”. 

 

The spirit is to even the playing field and eliminate unfair advantages. 


A part changed out for performance gain is a violation of both. A part changed to make an already available adjustment slightly easier to adjust (But does not otherwise enhance the adjustment) does not violate the spirit. Hence likely why the lead teams who stood to benefit (like Tuttle posted) opted not to file the protest. In the end it was a technicality that gave no real advantage.

A part that has a value has to be claimed. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

 

No "spirit/letter" interpretation needed. Not a technicality. No decision needed as to whether that particular car would gain an advantage or not. No buddy system where the other teams or even management make deals not to report violations. 

 

No green font anywhere in this post.

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9 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

Exactly...and this is why my team won't run with CC, still waiting for this culture to change, will it ever? 

My excuse is that there aren't any races near me but I think I'll add yours to my list. :)

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