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What happened to your ChampCar today? - 2020


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16 minutes ago, E. Tyler Pedersen said:

 

I am going to attempt it with just me and to just drop the transmission this weekend. 

 

Did you install the new seal at a different depth on the crank?

It's a weird (terrible) design.

 

The seal is built into a plate that dictates seal depth.  There's no wear on the crank flange.

 

I just pulled the seal off.  I managed to roll the lip in one spot.  I was really careful while installing it.  Not careful enough I guess.  Apparently my ego needed to be knocked down a peg or two.  If only I could afford to pay someone else to do all the prep on our car.  Then this could just be someone else's problem.

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So, we officially took two cars to a track day at Autobahn Full Course today....believe it or not, both cars had zero issues and drove back on the trailer...this is a first for us in 7 years of racing

☝️These guys: fun at parties. 

Not very solid logic, but by spending a little bit of money on a new electric tongue jack and some paint for the race trailer  I was distracted away from spending lots of money on the race car.

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31 minutes ago, SonsOfIrony said:

It's a weird (terrible) design.

 

The seal is built into a plate that dictates seal depth.  There's no wear on the crank flange.

 

I just pulled the seal off.  I managed to roll the lip in one spot.  I was really careful while installing it.  Not careful enough I guess.  Apparently my ego needed to be knocked down a peg or two.  If only I could afford to pay someone else to do all the prep on our car.  Then this could just be someone else's problem.

It’s very easy to roll lip, been there and done it more than I care to remember

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13 minutes ago, scottyk said:

It’s very easy to roll lip, been there and done it more than I care to remember

 

I've installed thousands of single and double lip seals.  It's been a long time since I rolled one and didn't catch it right away.  And to have it be one that's such a pain to get to only worsens the chappedness of my backside.

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2 hours ago, E. Tyler Pedersen said:

 

I am going to attempt it with just me and to just drop the transmission this weekend. 

 

Did you install the new seal at a different depth on the crank?

 

Save yourself the agony on the E30. Unless of course you have a 2 post lift and a nice adjustable trans jack.  As you know not alot of room for that trans in the e30 tunnel.  I ended up pulling the engine after a whole day struggling by myself to get transmission back in.  Oil pan gasket broke when I removed seal housing too.  Now I can drop the pan install new gasket.  Trans fit together in 5 minutes out of the car.  Everything goes back in this weekend.  Lots to do.

Yes I set seal at different depth eventhough crank looked good

 

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Oil pan gasket?  LOL

image.png.d3f6106b87be4a64966da462cab91c03.png

 

There are 2 seal designs for the M20 (and M50 and M52 and M54 - all the same).   11142249533

 

The classical version has the spring lip.

image.png.0d9505d079ed4ae769aa721191d730e4.png

 

 

 

The modern version is teflon and springless.  This version comes with a plastic install tool in the kit.

image.thumb.png.ce62983871f443fad2784de94e2a157f.png

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90x110x12, Replace when leaking or during clutch job, this is a new style PTFE seal without the tension ring, comes with installation tool

 

 

The OE 1980's seals were all spring.  The OE M54 seal was also spring on my 2001.  These will leave a wear groove on the crank. 

 

The modern teflon seals are a bit tricky to install, but not too bad.  The critical issue is that you SHALL NOT lube these with anything upon install.  Stick them on dry.  They need to wear in with some heat to form a tight seal.  The install tool makes it easy to get them on though.

 

 

You will need the gasket for the rear seal holding flange too.  Don't try to do the seal without just pulling the whole setup.  Press the seal out on your work bench, put the new one back in.  Then put the whole assembly back in the car.

 

They sell a "kit" with the rear plate and seal already assembled

FCP

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7 hours ago, TimS said:

 

Save yourself the agony on the E30. Unless of course you have a 2 post lift and a nice adjustable trans jack.  As you know not alot of room for that trans in the e30 tunnel.  I ended up pulling the engine after a whole day struggling by myself to get transmission back in.  Oil pan gasket broke when I removed seal housing too.  Now I can drop the pan install new gasket.  Trans fit together in 5 minutes out of the car.  Everything goes back in this weekend.  Lots to do.

Yes I set seal at different depth eventhough crank looked good

 

 

I can pull a transmission in 1 to 1.5 hours depending on my mood.  Now installing it I sometimes have a bit of trouble but usually get it on the 3rd or 4th try.  I don't mind it and would rather do it this way versus pulling the whole motor.  

 

As @Huggy already mentioned I use the Honda Bond stuff as well.  It is the best gasket sealer on the market for oil pans and haven't had any issues with it at all.  

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7 hours ago, E. Tyler Pedersen said:

 

I can pull a transmission in 1 to 1.5 hours depending on my mood.  Now installing it I sometimes have a bit of trouble but usually get it on the 3rd or 4th try.  I don't mind it and would rather do it this way versus pulling the whole motor.  

 

As @Huggy already mentioned I use the Honda Bond stuff as well.  It is the best gasket sealer on the market for oil pans and haven't had any issues with it at all.  


I agree it did take only 1-2 hours to get trans out. Another few minutes to get clutch and flywheel off. I was in about 3 hours when I started to install transmission. I spent a good 10 hours wrestling that SOB. I even bought a fancy trans jack and spent another few hours with that SOB. Probably my incompetence but it went together in 5 minutes once the engine was out. So once I had the engine out I decided to change the pan gasket for fun. I hope it all goes easy and well for you just replaying my pain. Sorry 

 

ps. I removed classic style seal that was leaking that was new and looked new and installed new style this time. 

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Out with the OE (wiring, fuse boxes, timing module, gauge cluster, etc)...

 

20200822_150144.thumb.jpg.d0daeec374c5ec5041db7e80bd404c1e.jpg

 

...in with the Microsquirt, Quadspark, and Innovate wideband...

 

20200907_173543.thumb.jpg.0c8cb66f28b35a21c0577b728fd71a61.jpg

 

And a bucket load of cheapo relays.

 

20200907_173532.thumb.jpg.b993873f8a8bd478320970137deebb21.jpg

 

We've been progressively having more and more trouble getting the contour started, and we reached the conclusion that it was the Ford PATS module not reading our ziptied-in-place chip key and preventing starting.  Microsquirt and complete replacement of the chassis/engine wiring seemed like a good idea....before we got started.

 

We've got it idling and driving a bit, so now starts the looooooong process of dialing the tune in to make some decent power.  Probably end up with a dyno day the weekend before sebring.  

 

We still haven't fabbed up new control arms or a new splitter to replace the bits wrecked at daytona, and we're running low on time.  Might have to run splitterless at sebring this year.

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13 hours ago, E. Tyler Pedersen said:

 

I can pull a transmission in 1 to 1.5 hours depending on my mood.  Now installing it I sometimes have a bit of trouble but usually get it on the 3rd or 4th try.


One hour fifteen to pull a transmission, install clutch and reinstall in the shop this morning. I’ve done a few. Drive shaft was already disconnected but that’s :15 minutes max. Exhaust is four bolts. I think I could do one at the track with a little help in under 2 hours. A lift and my trusty blocks of wood makes it easy at the shop. 

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4 hours ago, frankrehnelt said:


One hour fifteen to pull a transmission, install clutch and reinstall in the shop this morning. I’ve done a few. Drive shaft was already disconnected but that’s :15 minutes max. Exhaust is four bolts. I think I could do one at the track with a little help in under 2 hours. A lift and my trusty blocks of wood makes it easy at the shop. 


I would think the goal would be to not be good at this?

 

F3A42020-A90D-4263-B001-DE95BCD0450F.thumb.jpeg.e9038ea265f44141367cabd88f7a6464.jpeg

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8 hours ago, Burningham said:


I would think the goal would be to not be good at this?

 

F3A42020-A90D-4263-B001-DE95BCD0450F.thumb.jpeg.e9038ea265f44141367cabd88f7a6464.jpeg

 Oh really?  This is rich hearing a Lexus driver mocking bmw transmissions...

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, krispykritter said:

Out with the OE (wiring, fuse boxes, timing module, gauge cluster, etc)...

 

20200822_150144.thumb.jpg.d0daeec374c5ec5041db7e80bd404c1e.jpg

 

...in with the Microsquirt, Quadspark, and Innovate wideband...

 

20200907_173543.thumb.jpg.0c8cb66f28b35a21c0577b728fd71a61.jpg

 

And a bucket load of cheapo relays.

 

20200907_173532.thumb.jpg.b993873f8a8bd478320970137deebb21.jpg

 

We've been progressively having more and more trouble getting the contour started, and we reached the conclusion that it was the Ford PATS module not reading our ziptied-in-place chip key and preventing starting.  Microsquirt and complete replacement of the chassis/engine wiring seemed like a good idea....before we got started.

 

We've got it idling and driving a bit, so now starts the looooooong process of dialing the tune in to make some decent power.  Probably end up with a dyno day the weekend before sebring.  

 

We still haven't fabbed up new control arms or a new splitter to replace the bits wrecked at daytona, and we're running low on time.  Might have to run splitterless at sebring this year.

 

What wide band are you using? If I would do it again I would use the Sparta 14.7

 

Are you doing timing and fuel or fuel only? I did microsquirt on my Datsun, if I would have done it again I would have done fuel only. Unless there is an easy way to get a good trigger signal.

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3 hours ago, turbogrill said:

 

What wide band are you using? If I would do it again I would use the Sparta 14.7

 

Are you doing timing and fuel or fuel only? I did microsquirt on my Datsun, if I would have done it again I would have done fuel only. Unless there is an easy way to get a good trigger signal.

 

Did the Innovate LC-2.  Had some issues getting it calibrated but eventually got it right.

 

It's complete EMS for us - the original wiring and ECU are tossed out the window.  Our car was already a wasted-spark DIS so we have both crank and cam trigger wheels and VR sensors.  Took some time to calibrate it properly and figure out wheel offsets and the like, but it's open-loop idling good now and can be driven up to about 4k rpm.  Still going down to like 10:1 AFR under acceleration but our VE table has only just gotten to a decent baseline.  Going to spend all of saturday getting it dialed in a lot more.

 

Our contour had the ignitor system built into the ECU so we had to use the quadspark for spark control.  Wasted spark on a V6, so only using three outputs (out of four max).  Not coil-on-plug, though, so simpler wiring.

 

Fuel is semi-sequential, so it fires the banks separately at alternating times.  We'd have to go to MS3 in order to do full sequential fuel, and it's not really worth it for a race car.

 

I would think on the datsun you'd need to rig up your own crank wheel and sensor, though I don't think you'd need a cam wheel.  Might be a kit, might require you to fab it up yourself.  Definitely the hard(er) way.

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16 minutes ago, krispykritter said:

 

Did the Innovate LC-2.  Had some issues getting it calibrated but eventually got it right.

 

It's complete EMS for us - the original wiring and ECU are tossed out the window.  Our car was already a wasted-spark DIS so we have both crank and cam trigger wheels and VR sensors.  Took some time to calibrate it properly and figure out wheel offsets and the like, but it's open-loop idling good now and can be driven up to about 4k rpm.  Still going down to like 10:1 AFR under acceleration but our VE table has only just gotten to a decent baseline.  Going to spend all of saturday getting it dialed in a lot more.

 

Our contour had the ignitor system built into the ECU so we had to use the quadspark for spark control.  Wasted spark on a V6, so only using three outputs (out of four max).  Not coil-on-plug, though, so simpler wiring.

 

Fuel is semi-sequential, so it fires the banks separately at alternating times.  We'd have to go to MS3 in order to do full sequential fuel, and it's not really worth it for a race car.

 

I would think on the datsun you'd need to rig up your own crank wheel and sensor, though I don't think you'd need a cam wheel.  Might be a kit, might require you to fab it up yourself.  Definitely the hard(er) way.

 

Nice! 

 

Yeah I ended up buying a modified distrubtor from a Toyota or something.

 

Tired to fab a bracket for the crank wheel sensor but hard to get it right.

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1 hour ago, turbogrill said:

 

Nice! 

 

Yeah I ended up buying a modified distrubtor from a Toyota or something.

 

Tired to fab a bracket for the crank wheel sensor but hard to get it right.

 

For sure, VR sensors are super sensitive to ... well, everything, I guess.  Spacing for sure.  We've haven't tried to rev it passed 4k yet so not sure if we'll have sync issues at the top end.  Lots of work, hoping it pays off in power/reliability!

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Transmission bolted back on the engine.  New rear seal(teflon style), new clutch disc(couple sections broke off, not sure why), had flywheel ground by machine shop, inspected main bearings, new oil pan gasket(waited for cut gasket eventhough all top E30 racers use Hondabond), new motor and trans mounts, dropped engine and trans back into the car, connected wiring and fuel system, installed new oil filter and oil, started right up with good oil pressure.  Tomorrow cooling system, shifter, exhaust system, and driveshaft.  Tested light bar in the garage.

3F2D0311-BE13-4999-B194-EDA8003B7E92.jpeg

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Engine back in.  Sticker package on the car.  Few more things to button up.  Need to mount tie downs in the trailer tomorrow, then it's about ready to load for RA.

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Car went to frame shop a couple days ago.  No issues...  that's why I posted about rear toe control arms....

 

 

Car will be ready to compete with a new front end and comfort items handles at barber...

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9 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Car went to frame shop a couple days ago.  No issues...  that's why I posted about rear toe control arms....

 

 

Car will be ready to compete with a new front end and comfort items handles at barber...

 

Barber is shaping up to be a good show!

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Had both cars outside together for the first time so snapped a few pictures.  Then put #95 in the trailer and strapped it down, ready for RA.  Then we loaded all the tires and gas cans.  Just need to finish up some little projects on #35 and it goes in the trailer as well.  It's going to be a long week and a half.

IMG_20201011_123725540~2.jpg

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Lights on and wiring nearly complete. Few million little things to finish before Sebring.

3F1D2503-A9FF-49F8-8DAE-BE3B63F73383.jpeg
 

And a new addition to the team. 

 

A8033C44-C97A-4067-9A02-61D18A4C0D38.jpeg

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