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9.14.  NOISE LIMIT

9.14.1.
ChampCar’s basic noise limit for FOR ALL EVENTS is 96 dB at 50 feet from the track. Certain events may impose a tighter noise restriction – check all event supplemental rules. Excessive noise will result in a black-flag and require repair prior to being re-admitted to the race. A second offense will result in disqualification and removal from the event.

 

Just a reminder that your ChampCar will be required to have a muffler or something to make it quieter in 2020.
 

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Who hacked Paul's account? 

We as a group can't stand up and be mad at ChampCar for not enforcing their own rules, then also get mad at them when they do.   Enforced or not, they've been there, and I have always aimed

not worried our V8 is 3x quieter than most of the cars and 4x quieter than all the Miatas, honestly I don't know how you all can handle that noise for 2 hours. 

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If they are going to monitor, will they monitor on the test day (Friday)?  And will the results of any of the monitoring be available? 

 

Hard to know how close to the limit you are without getting some feedback from the guy running the meter.  At other events I've seen a listing of every car number with 2 or 3 readings written in for any car over a certain threshold.  I know every event is different, but you can at least get a sense of how close you are.

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2 hours ago, Bill Strong said:

9.14.  NOISE LIMIT

9.14.1.
ChampCar’s basic noise limit for FOR ALL EVENTS is 96 dB at 50 feet from the track. Certain events may impose a tighter noise restriction – check all event supplemental rules. Excessive noise will result in a black-flag and require repair prior to being re-admitted to the race. A second offense will result in disqualification and removal from the event.

 

Just a reminder that your ChampCar will be required to have a muffler or something to make it quieter in 2020.
 


laguna at least gives you 3 tries before you get kicked.

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8 minutes ago, Ronh911 said:


laguna at least gives you 3 tries before you get kicked.

I have two exhausts.  If I run exhaust one and its too loud I can try spec miata exhaust two.  If that is too loud, I will just drive 14 hours home.  NBD its just several thousand dollars and weeks of prep.

 

In reality I have these options:

1 - Risk it and hope that the two exhausts I've been running(both of which run fine in Spec Miata) are quiet enough.

2 - Build a third exhaust with two mufflers pre-race.

3 - Buy another muffler, bring it and hope someone can weld there with the understanding that the test day will be completely shot with the time it will take to fab a new exhaust on site.

 

I know the 2020 rules have been out a while but I missed this one.

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Is Champ adding staff at each event to monitor sound ?   What equipment is being used.  It’d be good to know some specifics so we could test track days     

 

Sound limits are not bad thing.  

 

 I think our cars are pretty quiet. But meters sometimes think otherwise. 

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11 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

I have two exhausts.  If I run exhaust one and its too loud I can try spec miata exhaust two.  If that is too loud, I will just drive 14 hours home.  NBD its just several thousand dollars and weeks of prep.

 

In reality I have these options:

1 - Risk it and hope that the two exhausts I've been running(both of which run fine in Spec Miata) are quiet enough.

2 - Build a third exhaust with two mufflers pre-race.

3 - Buy another muffler, bring it and hope someone can weld there with the understanding that the test day will be completely shot with the time it will take to fab a new exhaust on site.

 

I know the 2020 rules have been out a while but I missed this one.

 

Download a few different DB meters for a couple different smart phones, (different brand apps and phones) and make test hits with a phone on either side at 30', 40', and 50' and see what the numbers are.  If you're well below, then roll the dice, or just make it quieter and keep it that way.

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12 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

I have two exhausts.  If I run exhaust one and its too loud I can try spec miata exhaust two.  If that is too loud, I will just drive 14 hours home.  NBD its just several thousand dollars and weeks of prep.

 

In reality I have these options:

1 - Risk it and hope that the two exhausts I've been running(both of which run fine in Spec Miata) are quiet enough.

2 - Build a third exhaust with two mufflers pre-race.

3 - Buy another muffler, bring it and hope someone can weld there with the understanding that the test day will be completely shot with the time it will take to fab a new exhaust on site.

 

I know the 2020 rules have been out a while but I missed this one.

All the time and effort you put into building and testing your car and you can't come up with a way to figure out if it meets a specific rule on maximum sound level, come on...

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14 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

All the time and effort you put into building and testing your car and you can't come up with a way to figure out if it meets a specific rule on maximum sound level, come on...

I have not added a dB testing plan to our "to-do" list for Road Atlanta.  Its just ANOTHER thing and with only two strikes there isn't much time to "test" at the track.  If I had the readings that CCES took in 2019, I would be good to go.  I was not as smart as you to get dB readings and prepare ahead of time, Kudos to you for that.  That said, I doubt I am the only one that didn't do dB testing in 2019 in prep for this rule.

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8 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

I have not added a dB testing plan to our "to-do" list for Road Atlanta.  Its just ANOTHER thing and with only two strikes there isn't much time to "test" at the track.  If I had the readings that CCES took in 2019, I would be good to go.  I was not as smart as you to get dB readings and prepare ahead of time, Kudos to you for that.  That said, I doubt I am the only one that didn't do dB testing in 2019 in prep for this rule.

I get that it's winter and hard to test before an early season race down south. I didn't realize your post was made in the context of a specific race/situation.

I just think a team that preps to the level you guys do are certainly capable of testing for sound, the average chump maybe not so much. 

Since you are talking about SM exhausts specifically I would think sound numbers at RATL would exist, maybe the manufacturer could help you. 

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27 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

I get that it's winter and hard to test before an early season race down south. I didn't realize your post was made in the context of a specific race/situation.

I just think a team that preps to the level you guys do are certainly capable of testing for sound, the average chump maybe not so much. 

Since you are talking about SM exhausts specifically I would think sound numbers at RATL would exist, maybe the manufacturer could help you. 

I've checked the websites and didn't see dB numbers.  We're really behind on our prep for Road Atlanta and the tech-re-rulings are messing up our schedule.  I'm a upset that its 2 strikes instead of 3, that alone makes this a tough one since I HAVE to have a solid contingency plan($$$), but my attitude is more due to a death by 1000 cuts.

 

I DO appreciate the heads-up from Bill however, a reminder at the track would be even less pleasant.

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14 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

I've checked the websites and didn't see dB numbers.  We're really behind on our prep for Road Atlanta and the tech-re-rulings are messing up our schedule.  I'm a upset that its 2 strikes instead of 3, that alone makes this a tough one since I HAVE to have a solid contingency plan($$$), but my attitude is more due to a death by 1000 cuts.

 

I DO appreciate the heads-up from Bill however, a reminder at the track would be even less pleasant.

 

I do agree that only one chance to rectify is a little strict.  This isn't like the fuel leak situation that has such a high safety factor.

 

Also, it would be really nice to know that if they will be testing race day they will also be testing during testing.

 

I'd much rather spend friday making parts store runs to build a Laguna muffler than Saturday mid race.

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It's been a rule for a very long time.

You guys say we are not following our own rules per forums and social media postings.

So here you go.

Just put a muffler on your car and it will most likely be good at events where the track does not have sound limits.

 

This is the rule in the 2020 BCCR:
 

9.14.  NOISE LIMIT

9.14.1.
ChampCar’s basic noise limit for FOR ALL EVENTS is 96 dB at 50 feet from the track. Certain events may impose a tighter noise restriction – check all event supplemental rules. Excessive noise will result in a black-flag and require repair prior to being re-admitted to the race. A second offense will result in disqualification and removal from the event.

 

 

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24 minutes ago, Huggy said:

This is no different than 2018/2019, correct?  This has been in the rules already, so I don't think anyone has to worry.

 

 

Only people that dont have mufflers from our testing at the last few events (excluding Laguna Seca).
Everyone that had a muffler and an exhaust that did not leak passed. It is guys that had leaky exhausts or no mufflers that were in the 97-112 dbA range.

 

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8 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

 

 

Only people that dont have mufflers from our testing at the last few events (excluding Laguna Seca).
Everyone that had a muffler and an exhaust that did not leak passed. It is guys that had leaky exhausts or no mufflers that were in the 97-112 dbA range.

 

 

 

AHA. so A it is!

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some numbers we took at Sebring...

readings about 60 yards from track at an elevated height above ground, 3rd story. Hand held sound meter (NOT  a phone with an App)
Cars were measured for this test when they were alone and not in a group under load as they came down the front straight at sebring. Reading on the pit in side of the grandstands.

Car #          dbA 

108    93  tuttle motor sports

515    94.1  Unknown

861   90  Team Carma Toyota MR2

894   105 Button Down Racing Mini Cooper

570   93  Family Tradition Racing BMW M6

65     92  Flat Out Understeer Racing Honda Accord

485   90 Krueger Tuned Racing RX7   (What??? Bill)

950   100  Team Neveready Infiniti G35

186   102  Crank Yankers BMW E30

678    98   K-Wood Racing SC400

73      92  K-Wood Racing 3 Mazda Miata

19      90  Team Infiniti J30

516    100  Gorilla Sticker BMW 318ti

3        97 TLM Marathon Motorsports #3 BMW 330

990   100 Valyrian Steel Miata

 

https://champcar.org/register/entrantlist.php?eventid=394

 

So, this gives an idea of what we have. again. un-scientific. Some tracks have sound meters. I know that Road Atlanta has a sound board in the tower, I do not know where it is on track. But will find out when we arrive in a couple of weeks. Sonoma also has a sound meter in the tower, and it was really fun black flagging BOD members in the past.
VIR does not have a sound board in the south tower, and a hand held unit will be used. 
 

 

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Well. The front straight at Sebring has hard walls on either side, which will reflect and amplify the sound. I would suggest you carefully define the conditions under which you will be testing. And be transparent about that.

 

The area at Laguna Seca around the sound booth is relatively unrestricted, but it is at the point where you are going up the hill, so the car is under load. This may be more realistic if you are serious about sound. 

 

It would also be helpful if we can differentiate between exhaust and intake noise. If we're serious about noise, be prepared to help our customers fix the problem. 

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33 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

some numbers we took at Sebring...

readings about 60 yards from track at an elevated height above ground, 3rd story. Hand held sound meter (NOT  a phone with an App)
Cars were measured for this test when they were alone and not in a group under load as they came down the front straight at sebring. Reading on the pit in side of the grandstands.

Car #          dbA 

108    93  tuttle motor sports

515    94.1  Unknown

861   90  Team Carma Toyota MR2

894   105 Button Down Racing Mini Cooper

570   93  Family Tradition Racing BMW M6

65     92  Flat Out Understeer Racing Honda Accord

485   90 Krueger Tuned Racing RX7   (What??? Bill)

950   100  Team Neveready Infiniti G35

186   102  Crank Yankers BMW E30

678    98   K-Wood Racing SC400

73      92  K-Wood Racing 3 Mazda Miata

19      90  Team Infiniti J30

516    100  Gorilla Sticker BMW 318ti

3        97 TLM Marathon Motorsports #3 BMW 330

990   100 Valyrian Steel Miata

 

https://champcar.org/register/entrantlist.php?eventid=394

 

So, this gives an idea of what we have. again. un-scientific. Some tracks have sound meters. I know that Road Atlanta has a sound board in the tower, I do not know where it is on track. But will find out when we arrive in a couple of weeks. Sonoma also has a sound meter in the tower, and it was really fun black flagging BOD members in the past.
VIR does not have a sound board in the south tower, and a hand held unit will be used. 
 

 


Do you have data for all of the cars at Sebring?

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There was a team... they tripped the Laguna meter. 

Were really pissed because there is no way they should fail. They added another muffler. 
It was still loud from the sides with zero load. 
Some "sound guy" walked by and offered suggestions. He was wrong. And I said that. he got offended and left. 
I said, they have a leak. But there was no way. They jacked it up, and their shop had used some adapters and left gaps. They had a leak.
Of course they had no welder. I was able to get them one.

I guessed they had a leak by placing my hand over the exhaust exit. and when it rev'ed it, my hand never got blown off. 

How to fix your sound issues.

Install a muffler.
Make certain there are zero leaks in the exhaust system.
Make certain that your exhaust is supported in critical areas. A OEM exhaust will be a good start to see where the manufacturer of the car thought it was a good idea to mount supports.
Glass packed and flow through mufflers (not chambered mufflers) will burn the sound packing out quickly witn endurance racing. On my MR2 v6 I would kill a DynoMax Ultra Flo muffler in about 10 endurance weekends. So be aware that some cars can be less or more.
But everyone has their idea of what exhaust they should use for best performance and loudness. As above, one guys opinion was different than mine.

But we know there will be grey areas. 96db is way quieter than 105db.

Just make it quieter.
 

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15 minutes ago, Burningham said:


Do you have data for all of the cars at Sebring?

 

 

Quote. no. sorry. I only had my people do a quick test midway through the Saturday race. He only did cars that were by themselves. It was quick test to see how it works. and what numbers we got. very unscientific. Much like the radar gun we hand over to some untrained pit lane marschal. Its a guide. and if you are going by pitlane and hitting 105dbA, then yes, you may be black flagged and told to make it quieter. If you are hitting 97 on our gear? I bet not. But you never know. 
 

Bottom line. just add a muffler.

These worked great at Laguna Seca, and I used one on my cars (MK1 MR2s and '87 Shelby GLHS) in the 80s and 90s.
https://supertrapp.com/supertrapp-444-2503-4-inch-universal-disc-only-muffler-2-5in-inlet
Just get two packs of disks and play with it.

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1 hour ago, Bill Strong said:

 

 

Only people that dont have mufflers from our testing at the last few events (excluding Laguna Seca).
Everyone that had a muffler and an exhaust that did not leak passed. It is guys that had leaky exhausts or no mufflers that were in the 97-112 dbA range.

 

So am I good or bad?  I have  no idea.  Honestly.

 

but I have paying customers coming to race at VIR south.  There is no test day.  If I go through all that effort and get pulled from the race, with the same setup that’s been fine for 5+ years now, I’m gonna have an attitude issue.

 

 

this should have been announced and everyone given the opportunity to learn about sound before threatening to boot people with a “one strike” rule...  

 

 

there aren’t even any test days I can make between  now and then to try and test my sound.

 

 

Bill, please, from the bottom of my heart, I think it’s for the best if you remember that we are all customers and a bit of kindness goes a long way to keeping everyone happy.

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It was in last years rule book too.
 

and the year before. 

 

It is not a new rule. Just be advised that you could be hit with sound this year. 

 

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1 minute ago, Bill Strong said:

It was in last years rule book too.
 

and the year before. 

 

It is not a new rule. Just be advised that you could be hit with sound this year. 

 

Never enforced Bill...you know this as well as anyone.  With the exception of AMP, NCM and Laguna? 

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