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Bill Strong

BCCR 9.14.1 Noise Limit

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4 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

I think you guys are over thinking this way too much.  I'm new to Champcar this year, but I've raced at Calabogie for many years.  If they have noise complaints from neighbours, they can be fined if they are over the noise limits set out in their agreement with the municipality.  That sort of thing is getting more and more common. 

 

I'm sure no one is going to be sent home for being at 97 or 98.  If you arrive and show a reading of 105, get a warning, attempt a fix, and then show a reading of 99, I'm sure they will either let it go, or allow you another chance to find a solution.  If you go back out after a 2 minute fix and show 105 again, I would expect that you may get kicked out.

 

There are some differences in how a reading takes place, but its not going to be a difference of 5-10db. If your really worried about it, make sure your car is quiet.  Its really not that hard.

 

 

 

I sure would love to be able to determine if I am going to get black flagged for sound before I go spending money on fixing something that has been champcar legal for 4+ years.

 

Would pretty much ruin my weekend if we get black flagged for noise and it costs us race position.  

 

Not sure why that is difficult to understand.  

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Some of these tracks have neighbors who are very, very sensitive to noise. AMP is 98db 50 ft. at tracks edge. They have sound monitors all around the track. We exceeded this by 1db at the October practice day. Were we were black flagged and told to fix it or we could not race. Luckily we have our car prepped at Racing Analytics which is located at the track. We went to them and they said no problem happens all the time. They inserted a restrictor in our tailpipe and we were good to go. BTW 2003 Miata with a muffler installed not a monster hp car with straight pipes.

 

It was not ChampCar's call, it was the track which warned us..

Edited by mickindy14
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52 minutes ago, KoneKillah said:

 

 

 

This is ridiculous. 

 

 

 

 

Now we are getting somewhere.... This should be something that's easily tested at home with a $50 meter (NOT an app) in a repeatable way. This way your paying customers KNOW they are compliant BEFORE they drag their POS racecar halfway across the country on a shoestring budget.

 

Let's take a bit of a crash course on how sound should be tested by a series that has done it for 30+ years:

 

image.png.ff6c833816f54683cd824bac0c43390c.png

image.png.ddd5a690f764a66a337b6b6539cce5c0.png

 

 

This is something that teams can test at home base, feel confident they pass, then show up and race. Keep in mind half drunk college students with no sleep can follow these rules....

 

50ft from what side of the track?

 

At what engine rpm?

 

At what load?

 

Are there cars running nearby?

 

Is it tested in the same location for every car?

 

I'm absolutely not saying we should copy this, I'm just suggesting that perhaps we should be a bit more scientific than "Some sound meter at some scale in an arbitrary position to the track in arbitrary conditions"

 

Testing this could take 5 minutes during tech inspection. This would allow teams to remedy sound issues BEFORE the race. 

 

Testing during tech has its downsides as well.  They test stage Rally cars at Tech using a sound meter.  Cars are tested unloaded at 2 RPM points, at a set distance.

 

Works great for the honest teams.

 

For anyone wanting to push the limits, a package of steal wool jammed deep into the exhaust will make any car quiet untill someone winds out the engine a few times, then it's all just Sparks and dust till the next race.

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9 minutes ago, SonsOfIrony said:

 

Testing during tech has its downsides as well.  They test stage Rally cars at Tech using a sound meter.  Cars are tested unloaded at 2 RPM points, at a set distance.

 

Works great for the honest teams.

 

For anyone wanting to push the limits, a package of steal wool jammed deep into the exhaust will make any car quiet untill someone winds out the engine a few times, then it's all just Sparks and dust till the next race.

 

Half drunk college students on no sleep figured this out too. There is always a way "around" the rules by dishonest people and that should be treated as the exception. I find this better than not having the sound test clearly defined. 

 

Edited by KoneKillah

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29 minutes ago, mickindy14 said:

Some of these tracks have neighbors who are very, very sensitive to noise. AMP is 98db 50 ft. at tracks edge. They have sound monitors all around the track. We exceeded this by 1db at the October practice day. Were we were black flagged and told to fix it or we could not race. Luckily we have our car prepped at Racing Analytics which is located at the track. We went to them and they said no problem happens all the time. They inserted a restrictor in our tailpipe and we were good to go. BTW 2003 Miata with a muffler installed not a monster hp car with straight pipes.

 

It was not ChampCar's call, it was the track which warned us..

 

This is good info - If you have raced at AMP with champcar and not been told you are too loud, you are probably pretty close to meeting the rule.

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1 hour ago, Huggy said:

 

I sure would love to be able to determine if I am going to get black flagged for sound before I go spending money on fixing something that has been champcar legal for 4+ years.

 

Would pretty much ruin my weekend if we get black flagged for noise and it costs us race position.  

 

Not sure why that is difficult to understand.  


except it hasn’t been legal for 4 years.  It’s just not been enforced.  If your running at 105db, you’ve been illegal. Now they will be enforcing it. So you’ve got to adapt. 
 

Its not hard to make a car quiet. Yes it may cost you a bit of $$. It might rob you a bit of HP (doubt it). So you can either go testing, and try and push the sound to the limit, or you can play it safe, make sure it’s quiet enough to not get black flagged and go racing. 
 

Any track with a sound limit that I’ve been to, will test in the paddock first. Ask ahead of time and they will test it.  It’s not exactly the same as on track, but in my experience, it’s usually pretty good. 

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I think enforcing this rule is reasonable and I appreciate the heads up. I’m probably too close so my car will get more muffling. I did similar for my eclipse at laguna.

 

thanks bill!

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8 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:

I think enforcing this rule is reasonable and I appreciate the heads up. I’m probably too close so my car will get more muffling. I did similar for my eclipse at laguna.

 

thanks bill!

Who hacked Paul's account? 

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21 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

Put a muffler on your car.

Fixed.

Maybe.  You won’t know until you get there and get a reading from on a specific day with that days specific weather.   

 

But putting a good muffler on will make your chances better.  

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13 minutes ago, Hurljohn said:

Who hacked Paul's account? 

You must detect a theme.. this one does not cost me points and it is in the rule book!! Enforce what’s in the rule book or delete it. This is one of the options I accept!!

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31 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

Put a muffler on your car.

Fixed.

 

 

Man I wish it were that simple!

 

We are asking for further clarification because we WANT to be compliant so that we can CONTINUE to give you our money! Why is it so hard to come up with a proper procedure? Or even talk about it?

 

Here. I'll do it for you:

 

50ft from exit of exhaust

 

Test in Neutral gear

 

xx dBA @ Idle

 

xx dBA @ rated power OR pinging off the limiter (Whichever is louder?)

 

Test in tech. If failed continue through the rest of tech inspection. Sound re-test before race the next morning.

 

Gonna give a visit to my old friend Mr. Hemholtz

Edited by KoneKillah

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2 minutes ago, KoneKillah said:

 

 

Man I wish it were that simple!

 

And this is ridiculous. We are asking for further clarification because we WANT to be compliant so that we can CONTINUE to give you our money! Why is it so hard to come up with a proper procedure? Or even talk about it?

 

Here. I'll do it for you:

 

50ft from exit of exhaust

 

Test in Neutral gear

 

xx dBA @ Idle

 

xx dBA @ rated power OR pinging off the limiter

 

Test in tech. If failed continue through the rest of tech inspection. Sound re-test before race the next morning.

 

Gonna give a visit to my old friend Mr. Hemholtz

This doesn't work.  Here's why.

 

As stated before, the biggest complaint that gets made about tracks is the noise.  To appease the neighbors limits get set for what the neighbors will have to put up with.  That limit is based on what it sounds like at the property limit during races/track events.  Tech line is not the race and does not have the cars at full load and is not likely at the edge of the property, so what the car sounds like there, is not the standard it needs to meet.  It can be a data point that you can then extrapolate from, but not necessarily.

 

Many tracks have their own standards that has ZERO to do with the folks hosting the race.  Trust me, they don't want to have to enforce it either, but it is easier to enforce sound limits than to fight court orders and go out of business.  But they will give you minimal warnings before pulling you in.  Trust me, I've had my race shortened or lost all my qualifying times due to noise.  Yes it sucks.

 

Also as stated before this isn't a hard or new thing to deal with.  We all benefit from it.  Be glad that Champcar is at least giving some warning on the fact that they will be looking at this (or listening) at upcoming races.  If you think the car is louder than most, have a plan to make it quieter. 

 

Step 1 create a standard (mostly done)

Step 2 tell people they need to meet it (done)

Step 3 monitor it and let people know how they're doing in a manner that allows them to go racing. (needs to be carried out)

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

Put a muffler on your car.

Fixed.

 

This is not helpful bud.

 

Im all for enforcing the rules.  This is a good thing.

But there needs to be a “adaptation” period to let everyone figure out how to comply.    

 

 

I have mufflers on my car, but I have no way of knowing if I am good or not good.

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5 minutes ago, MMiskoe said:

This doesn't work.  Here's why.

 

As stated before, the biggest complaint that gets made about tracks is the noise.  To appease the neighbors limits get set for what the neighbors will have to put up with.  That limit is based on what it sounds like at the property limit during races/track events.  Tech line is not the race and does not have the cars at full load and is not likely at the edge of the property, so what the car sounds like there, is not the standard it needs to meet.  It can be a data point that you can then extrapolate from, but not necessarily.

 

Many tracks have their own standards that has ZERO to do with the folks hosting the race.  Trust me, they don't want to have to enforce it either, but it is easier to enforce sound limits than to fight court orders and go out of business.  But they will give you minimal warnings before pulling you in.  Trust me, I've had my race shortened or lost all my qualifying times due to noise.  Yes it sucks.

 

Also as stated before this isn't a hard or new thing to deal with.  We all benefit from it.  Be glad that Champcar is at least giving some warning on the fact that they will be looking at this (or listening) at upcoming races.  If you think the car is louder than most, have a plan to make it quieter. 

 

Step 1 create a standard (mostly done)

Step 2 tell people they need to meet it (done)

Step 3 monitor it and let people know how they're doing in a manner that allows them to go racing. (needs to be carried out)

 

 

 

Other race series seem to have it figured out. Also the standard is not "Mostly done". There is no standard but a dB limit. A measurement means absolutely nothing if you do not know the conditions in which the measurement was taken. It also must be repeatable so people can show up compliant.

 

You provided anecdotes, yes, but no solution. I think having a standard test procedure anyone can test at their shop is moving toward a solution. If you disagree, provide a better solution.

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26 minutes ago, KoneKillah said:

 

Other race series seem to have it figured out. Also the standard is not "Mostly done". There is no standard but a dB limit. A measurement means absolutely nothing if you do not know the conditions in which the measurement was taken. It also must be repeatable so people can show up compliant.

 

You provided anecdotes, yes, but no solution. I think having a standard test procedure anyone can test at their shop is moving toward a solution. If you disagree, provide a better solution.

 

The tracks have their own test procedure.  So what passes tech may not pass the tracks limits, so therefore a during tech test is relatively useless.

 

Just imagine how upset you'd be if they pulled you off track even though you "passed tech".

 

The way I see it, this is shaping up just like the fender flare thing.  A bunch of people are all torches and pitchforks even though a few of us will have to make minor changes, changes, and most of us will keep on keeping on.  There might be a couple cars that need to actually build new exhaust coughCRXcough, but I have feeling there will plenty of leeway.

 

This probably wouldn't even be getting enforced right now if so many people hadn't blatantly disregarded the rule as it was.

Edited by SonsOfIrony
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1 minute ago, JDChristianson said:

check out our new muffler.   It’s all about keeping the neighbors happy.     :)

image.jpeg.85b223b39405e0a0daf089f151feef02.jpeg

 

Not just the neighbors.  The driver too.

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was sound even the same in 1992? I know to me, rock concerts sounded so much better back then. Today they sound all muffled. It's weird. You would think that with technology the sound would get better. I now have to turn my TV up to 61 to even hear it. weird.

 

Drivers meeting... the ED says the pit lane speed is 25 mph, about 2000 rpm in 2nd gear. We get you on our radar gun at 55 mph down pit lane. 

Not once in the 7 years I have been working with ChampCar have I heard of anyone asking us for the certification of the radar gun, or the user of said radar gun in black flag?

 

But I post up a rule that has been in place for a whole bunch of years, and now you want a certified process of how we are going to test you?

 

It was actually quite funny at Laguna Seca two years ago. Teams were coming up to me complaining about how quiet their cars were. So they would rev it for me. And sure enough, it was quiet. But I asked the guys wearing their favorite college logo'ed raw-raw gear, what it sounded like under load? I got a few perplexed looks. So the teams (multiple... not just one) took their cars back on track and under load going down the front straight the cars sounded very different, and much, much louder. Thats why I decided to make the Laguna Seca "how to make your car quiet" flyer. 95% of the teams that showed up for the 2019 race were prepared and were quiet. There was then odd Porsche Boxster that thought they would pass with a turbo as a muffler (FAIL and a half), or the ChampCar BOD member that hit 110+ when his downpipe collector on the header decided it did not want to stay welded to the tubes coming off the head. Or as I described earlier about the guys that needed some holes patched. But you will always have that.

 

How about this...

 

Rough... 
If the track does not have a process in place that overrides ChampCar, like Laguna Seca, NCM, Thompson...etc... then we just set up the sound meter along pit lane where ChampCar determines will be a good point to place the sound meter of our choice (I am using this I purchased for $20)
It will be used at the discretion of the Event Director, or the onsite head of tech.
A sound reading will be taken during the active race, with the sound meter pointed at the cars as they go down the front straight 50 feet away from the cars.  If the ED or onsite head of tech determines that the sound exceeds the events limits based on the information that the sound person gives them, then the team could be black flagged to fix the sound issue per 2020 BCCR 9.14.1.
ChampCar will attempt to record the sound readings and car numbers for later display on the CCES forum event thread.
Disclaimer. Not all races will have this available. it will be a surprise.

 


 

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I put 2 mufflers on our car to be safe; on the podium 2X with this setup.  I’ve got to many other things to worry about during a race to be concerned with fixing a loud exhaust. 

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27 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

 

Rough... 
If the track does not have a process in place that overrides ChampCar, like Laguna Seca, NCM, Thompson...etc... then we just set up the sound meter along pit lane where ChampCar determines will be a good point to place the sound meter of our choice (I am using this I purchased for $20)
It will be used at the discretion of the Event Director, or the onsite head of tech.
A sound reading will be taken during the active race, with the sound meter pointed at the cars as they go down the front straight 50 feet away from the cars.  If the ED or onsite head of tech determines that the sound exceeds the events limits based on the information that the sound person gives them, then the team could be black flagged to fix the sound issue per 2020 BCCR 9.14.1.
ChampCar will attempt to record the sound readings and car numbers for later display on the CCES forum event thread.
Disclaimer. Not all races will have this available. it will be a surprise.

 


 

 

 

See, now we are getting somewhere. 

 

Details matter. I want to be compliant. Having discussions like this is helpful. Much better than "Put a muffler on it".

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What is really nice, is that it has distracted you guys from other "issues" and has allowed us to catch up on some items that we fell behind on. Almost caught up...
 

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1 hour ago, KoneKillah said:

A measurement means absolutely nothing

So I guess I should add some thought to this rather then just sending the quote. Measurements mean everything as we deal with this every day I work

and yes the rule defines a set decibel level at a set distance. That is what is needed. 

Now you can all argue all you want about weather, wind and mother nature as they all make a difference in the measured number and yes that is real world.

The long and short is cars are too loud and I know of many with straight pipes and no mufflers, easiest fix is to put a good muffler on it and get a reading and adjust from there. Much better to have a weekend of racing then going to the first day and getting sent home with a loud system. Might suggest if you come to a race with no muffler and make no effort you should be sent home. Now if you have a muffler and made an effort and miss by a db or two you race and sent home after to get it better. Seems fair to me.

 

Champcars goal is to get cars to race with in the levels assigned and if that is done everyone gets to keep racing. 

We used to be one of the loud Miata's with ascreamming 1.6 but when we swapped and changed exhaust we went to a turbo muffler which is quiet.

Edited by 55mini
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