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Exhaust manifold swaps

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It’s fairly old news at this point that some cars get free manifolds as part of an engine swap.  I’ve been vocal in my criticism of this practice, particularly towards @Jer.  Given recent developments, I’ve found I did not fully understand the issue as it stands today, and I owe Jerry an apology.

 

In the post-race discussion from Sebring, it became evident that the 350 Camaro was allowed “ram horn manifolds” for 2 pts.  Statements from @Ray Franck indicated that this value was used since it was an OE style manifold, and not a header which is 25 pts per the FPVL.  Up to this point, I was under the impression that any non-OE manifold would be charged 25 pts.  This got me thinking about my car, a BMW E46.  It’s common (and required in Spec E46) to swap in E36 manifolds to remove the catalytic converters.  With that in mind, I submitted a question to the tech desk to find out what value, if any, was assigned to that swap.  It came back as zero pts.

 

It may seem foolish to question this, but is this the right approach?  With evolving emissions requirements, I expect many other cars have catalytic converters arranged similarly, and many likely don’t have a swap as easy as the E46.  Is this allowance already known and widespread?  Dare I ask if the Boxster gets something similar?

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I switched to an ecotec cast exhaust manifold.  Granted its from the 2010 version of a Chevy Equinox but still an iron 2.4 exhaust manifold.  I got tired of the negativity associated with the Polaris version.  It's still part of the swap to make it work on the car though. 

 

I'm not sure how I feel about headers for free.  I'm not the tech guy or guys on the Board though so I defer.  

Edited by Jer
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with the points being the way they are is it even an issue? and anybody that runs a V8 and uses old mani's is a fool. Those "ram" mani's flow like poo poo. Now if you had an old Mopar and go a hold of these....but they are worth more than the car you put them in...lol 

 

s-l400.jpg

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36 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

flow like poo poo.

Umm, compared to tubular headers, yup, otherwise, some of us disagree that they are a terrible choice.

 

 

We may run a Infiniti but that doesn't take away from growing up in the 70s in a SBC house ;)

 

 

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BMW ruling put up yesterday

https://champcar.org/tech/knowledgebase.php?article=63

 

Q. 
Car: 2000 BMW 328ci (E46)

What is the point value charged to run the BMW E46 vehicle with OEM BMW E36 exhaust manifolds (as required in spec E46 class)?
 

A.
As the catalytic converters are built into the e46 exhaust manifold, a swap of the E36 exhaust manifold would incur zero points.

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9 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Umm, compared to tubular headers, yup, otherwise, some of us disagree that they are a terrible choice.

 

 

We may run a Infiniti but that doesn't take away from growing up in the 70s in a SBC house ;)

 

 

eng1.jpg.2fadf8a6755ff4b949e9e8e2395ea1de.jpg

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6 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

BMW ruling put up yesterday

https://champcar.org/tech/knowledgebase.php?article=63

 

Q. 
Car: 2000 BMW 328ci (E46)

What is the point value charged to run the BMW E46 vehicle with OEM BMW E36 exhaust manifolds (as required in spec E46 class)?
 

A.
As the catalytic converters are built into the e46 exhaust manifold, a swap of the E36 exhaust manifold would incur zero points.

 

This is the sort of stuff that makes people spin.  Is there a specific E36 manifold that has to be used?  There are some VERY good factory E36 manifolds.  What happened to "We didn't pick your car"?

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11 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

BMW ruling put up yesterday

https://champcar.org/tech/knowledgebase.php?article=63

 

Q. 
Car: 2000 BMW 328ci (E46)

What is the point value charged to run the BMW E46 vehicle with OEM BMW E36 exhaust manifolds (as required in spec E46 class)?
 

A.
As the catalytic converters are built into the e46 exhaust manifold, a swap of the E36 exhaust manifold would incur zero points.


Why can’t the BMWs just hollow out the cats?  

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17 minutes ago, Bill Strong said:

Screen Shot 2020-01-21 at 1.37.37 PM.png

Maybe but tell me how hard it is to find Hi-Po parts for the Toyota and price? I can find Hi-Po parts for an a mid 90's LT1 350 at DOllar General. They start at 300hp ;) and when real LS motors are allowed in Chumps.. wellllllllllll 

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31 minutes ago, shanehutton said:

 

This is the sort of stuff that makes people spin.  Is there a specific E36 manifold that has to be used?  There are some VERY good factory E36 manifolds.  What happened to "We didn't pick your car?

Good point, I should have been more specific with my question to the tech desk.  My intent was to find the value for the E36 M52B28 manifolds that are also required in the Spec E46 series.  Just to be clear, I didn’t expect the value to be zero, just that there was a good chance it was less than 25 based on the allowance for the Camaro.

 

Free is opening a can of worms that may get ugly if applied uniformly.  It’s much harder to address if it’s already been going on for several years though.

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2 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

Have you any dyno or seat of pants difference?

I have not but the MiElan guys did and reports a 2 or 3 HP drop and a similar gain in torque.  negligible difference.

 

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I requested clarification on whether exhaust manifold was the same as header or whether they would be different line items on the fixed point list. I was asked what model car I had and what exhaust manifold I would be swapping to before they would answer. This interpretation seems to be model specific which seems to go against the whole idea of a fixed point list. 
 

Someone just needs to submit a ticket for every oem exhaust manifold you can swap on any car so we can understand the value of an oem manifold /greenfont 

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1 hour ago, Jer said:

I have not but the MiElan guys did and reports a 2 or 3 HP drop and a similar gain in torque.  negligible difference.

To be totally open about this we took the changed cast manifold and ran it on the same dyno, yes it was about six to seven months after we last ran with the turbo header. 

So room for errors not running back to back on the same day. HP was nearly the same and small changes in the torque area. 

 

I will also add after tuning work was done to smooth the flow you might not see any difference as we traced old over the new.

 

Conclusion for us that it was a joke saying the turbo gave noted added HP, which makes since when you look at it and understand flow. Only good with the other spinning

parts.

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1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

High swirl heads, did you port them for some rpms?

 

Stock 88 305 heads with some garage work. (by a guy that knows SBC's)

Edited by TiredBirds
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1 hour ago, 55mini said:

To be totally open about this we took the changed cast manifold and ran it on the same dyno, yes it was about six to seven months after we last ran with the turbo header. 

So room for errors not running back to back on the same day. HP was nearly the same and small changes in the torque area. 

 

I will also add after tuning work was done to smooth the flow you might not see any difference as we traced old over the new.

 

Conclusion for us that it was a joke saying the turbo gave noted added HP, which makes since when you look at it and understand flow. Only good with the other spinning

parts.

 

By stretching the definition of a part that's "required" for a swap for no gains you are only hurting yourself by paving the way for others to take advantage.

 

If the OEM cast manifold fits, why not just play by the rules and run it?

 

The "I should be allowed to do this because it doesn't really help" is the same logic/argument the cheaters use and should just be ignored, since it's hard to tell the difference.  

 

 

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Supposedly there were emails with BMW tuners and suppliers to get answers. I did not put that part in tbe knowledge base as it was not needed. 

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I'm using 2 "front" stock cast manifolds on my new build versus the headers I built for the old build.  I suppose I need to submit a ticket to the techline to see if this is points.  

 

Stock fwd based "rear" manifolds will not fit the engine in its rwd configuration.  They try to occupy the same space as many important bits.

 

For the sake of conversation, should using 2 right side or 2 left side of a stock manifold incur points on a swap?

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3 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I'm using 2 "front" stock cast manifolds on my new build versus the headers I built for the old build.  I suppose I need to submit a ticket to the techline to see if this is points.  

 

Stock fwd based "rear" manifolds will not fit the engine in its rwd configuration.  They try to occupy the same space as many important bits.

 

For the sake of conversation, should using 2 right side or 2 left side of a stock manifold incur points on a swap?

I think it should be no points.  

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13 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

For the sake of conversation, should using 2 right side or 2 left side of a stock manifold incur points on a swap?

Absolutely not, totally within the now abandoned spirit.

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