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Exhaust manifold swaps

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1 hour ago, Bill Strong said:

Supposedly there were emails with BMW tuners and suppliers to get answers. I did not put that part in tbe knowledge base as it was not needed. 

 

These are the stock E46 manifolds vs two different OEM E36 options.  Based on the knowledge base wording, they are all allowed with zero points.  This is great news cause I have been wanting to run the Integra type R OEM manifold on my civic for free as well. 😎

 


 

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Edited by shanehutton

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Just now, shanehutton said:

 

These are the stock E46 manifolds vs two different OEM E36 options.  Based on the knowledge base wording, they are all allowed with zero points.

 


 

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lol...wow. 

Yeah, no performance gain to be had there. 🙄

But hey, it's a BMW so....

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1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

Absolutely not, totally within the now abandoned spirit.

Not sure if I wanna laugh or cry...

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Geez, we have been doing it wrong the whole time by simply lopping off the cats and adding pipe

 

Seriously, that IS how we deal with this stuff...

Edited by Team Infiniti
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Just now, Team Infiniti said:

Geez, we have been doing it wrong the whole time by simply lopping off the cats and adding pipe

 

Seriously, though, that IS how we deal with this stuff...

Same.  I liked that way of doing things.

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50 minutes ago, shanehutton said:

 

These are the stock E46 manifolds vs two different OEM E36 options.  Based on the knowledge base wording, they are all allowed with zero points.  This is great news cause I have been wanting to run the Integra type R OEM manifold on my civic for free as well. 😎

 


 

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If that was for a Mustang I’m sure it would be at least 25 points or simply not allowed.  

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47 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Same.  I liked that way of doing things.

We pay 25 points for headers. We thought that's the way it worked, not that people could use better parts off other models or years for no points. 

4.7.6 says this about parts that do not count to point value...

Quote

...so long as it’s an OEM or OEM- equivalent part for that car’s specific model.

How are better exhaust manifolds for an E36 now free on an E46? 

And how are Ram's horn manifolds that are better than OEM 3rd Gen F-body manifolds only 2-points? No F-body ever came with Ram's horn manifolds. 

I just don't get it.

 

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The bottom option is what the op was asking about.

 

the middle ones are s50 (///m) parts and should not be included in this discussion.

 

not arguing either way, but no need to exadurate the parts in question

 

Edit:

the middle ones are m52b28 manifolds.  Found on obd2 e36, e39, probably also e53 and e83

Edited by Huggy
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1 hour ago, Snorman said:

We pay 25 points for headers. We thought that's the way it worked, not that people could use better parts off other models or years for no points. 

4.7.6 says this about parts that do not count to point value...

How are better exhaust manifolds for an E36 now free on an E46? 

And how are Ram's horn manifolds that are better than OEM 3rd Gen F-body manifolds only 2-points? No F-body ever came with Ram's horn manifolds. 

I just don't get it.

 

Me neither.  Just to clarify, do you have an issue with using 2 front stock manifolds on am engine instead of a front and a rear (cuz now they be left and right...)

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2 hours ago, Snorman said:

lol...wow. 

Yeah, no performance gain to be had there. 🙄

But hey, it's a BMW so....

My son put headers on his 2004 330i, quite a difference.

 

The stock manifolds aren't very good - but they were part of the assigned VPI. 

Edited by mender

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39 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Me neither.  Just to ctlarify, do you have an issue with using 2 front stock manifolds on am engine instead of a front and a rear (cuz now they be left and right...)

No problem. If one of the stock manifolds doesn't fit, use a header on that side. :)

Edited by mender
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11 hours ago, Snorman said:

We pay 25 points for headers. We thought that's the way it worked, not that people could use better parts off other models or years for no points. 

4.7.6 says this about parts that do not count to point value...

How are better exhaust manifolds for an E36 now free on an E46? 

And how are Ram's horn manifolds that are better than OEM 3rd Gen F-body manifolds only 2-points? No F-body ever came with Ram's horn manifolds. 

I just don't get it.

 

Will those "Ram" manis work on a Gen III f-body? I don't see how. They dump in the center, not sure how that would possibly clear everything.  

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14 hours ago, ABR-Glen said:

 

By stretching the definition of a part that's "required" for a swap for no gains you are only hurting yourself by paving the way for others to take advantage.

 

If the OEM cast manifold fits, why not just play by the rules and run it?

 

The "I should be allowed to do this because it doesn't really help" is the same logic/argument the cheaters use and should just be ignored, since it's hard to tell the difference.  

 

 

So let me add a couple details.  

Our first swap was a 2.2 from a cobalt.  That exhaust manifold will not work. We were told, along with everyone else via a red flag video that we could use a header.   The header that we used is the turbo header that is used on the Polaris slingshot.    So pretty sure we were and are playing by the rules.      We are not using it because it doesn’t really help. We are using it because we were told it was legal to do so, and it fit.    The fact that it doesn’t really help is just an interesting side note that has nothing to do with legality.     

 

If it really bothers you, you can write a rule change petition and work on getting it changed. We will then take appropriate actions to be within the new rule.  Right now we are within the current rules.  

 

In the mean time we will go to races, have fun, and perfect our point by skills for the latest group of really fast cars.   

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59 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

Will those "Ram" manis work on a Gen III f-body? I don't see how. They dump in the center, not sure how that would possibly clear everything.  

No, AFAIK they don't clear the stock K-member.

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1 hour ago, TiredBirds said:

Will those "Ram" manis work on a Gen III f-body? I don't see how. They dump in the center, not sure how that would possibly clear everything.  

 

7 minutes ago, Snorman said:

No, AFAIK they don't clear the stock K-member.

 

Rams horns do not fit a stock genIII f-body but the car in question does not have a stock K-member, for this reason, to a knowing eye, they looked out of place.

Edited by Team Infiniti

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12 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

 

 

Rams horns do not fit a stock genIII f-body but the car in question does not have a stock K-member, for this reason, to a knowing eye, they looked out of place.

why would you go thru the trouble of an aftermarket k-frame and not use headers? The "points" have dropped so much over the last 5 years there is no reason not to. Our car was 490ish in 2014. Even with the new intake and carb we have almost 100 extra. 

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12 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

why

Because they used all the points for speed to make up fuel shortage?

 

You really need to see the car in person, you might be faster next race...

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12 hours ago, Huggy said:

The bottom option is what the op was asking about.

 

the middle ones are s50 (///m) parts and should not be included in this discussion.

 

not arguing either way, but no need to exadurate the parts in question

 

Edit:

the middle ones are m52b28 manifolds.  Found on obd2 e36, e39, probably also e53 and e83

 

I am well aware of the fact that he intended to use the M52 ones (and also assumed it would cost points) but the answer in the knowledge base is:
"As the catalytic converters are built into the e46 exhaust manifold, a swap of the E36 exhaust manifold would incur zero points."

 

That means that any E36 OEM manifold is approved.  Thus, the S50 ones are just as legal as the M52 ones.  It also doesn't take much of a look to see that even the M52 ones will be substantially better than the E46 ones with squashed runners and a 90 degree corner.  I think most of us are paying 25 points for "headers" that provide less of an upgrade than these will provide.

 

Change your exhaust manifold should just be 25 points for all cars under all circumstances.  I don't understand why this can of worms was opened up for the ecotech or in this case.  If the stock manifolds suck, or the motor swap you are doing doesn't fit, then pay the points for the parts you want.  Why is the answer half of the time "we didn't pick your car" or "we didn't pick your swap" and the other half of the time it's "whatever you need is free"?  If I want to put a V8 in a Toyota Tercel but it doesn't fit in the front, can I put it in the back and have everything I need to do that for free?  It almost feels like the rule book is just a set of suggestions sometimes.  

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1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

Because they used all the points for speed to make up fuel shortage?

 

You really need to see the car in person, you might be faster next race...

Is this not a Champ car? I thought we were limited on fuel. BTW we run the other league so we can't go balls to the wall and build this car to the max Champ points... 

Edited by TiredBirds

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5 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

So let me add a couple details.  

Our first swap was a 2.2 from a cobalt.  That exhaust manifold will not work. We were told, along with everyone else via a red flag video that we could use a header.   The header that we used is the turbo header that is used on the Polaris slingshot.    So pretty sure we were and are playing by the rules.      We are not using it because it doesn’t really help. We are using it because we were told it was legal to do so, and it fit.    The fact that it doesn’t really help is just an interesting side note that has nothing to do with legality.     

 

If it really bothers you, you can write a rule change petition and work on getting it changed. We will then take appropriate actions to be within the new rule.  Right now we are within the current rules.  

 

In the mean time we will go to races, have fun, and perfect our point by skills for the latest group of really fast cars.   

Sorry about the "playing by the rules" phrase, I could have written that more tactfully. I don't doubt that you were claiming what you were running and given value accordingly at tech.

I realize that there are many variants of the Ecotec and their exhaust manifolds and the understanding of what fits what has changed over time.

 

I like the way Jer is addressing this issue (I've driven his car BTW and I don't consider him a cheater, FWIW), he knows it was a contentious topic, so he's avoiding it even though the current rules are pretty much crystal clear that it's allowed. On the other hand, you guys seem to be justifying your option to run it, which is fine, I'm just trying to make the point that approach can have other consequences.

 

If I swap my car and decide to locate the motor just close enough to the subframe that the stock manifolds would hit and then I get free headers because they were "required", I would be legal by the same red flag video you are quoting, right? 

 

It's easy for the fox to get into the henhouse if people don't realize when they are holding the door open. 

 

 

Edited by ABR-Glen
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2 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

 

 

Rams horns do not fit a stock genIII f-body but the car in question does not have a stock K-member, for this reason, to a knowing eye, they looked out of place.

The tech sheet that was posted did not claim a K-member. 

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13 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Me neither.  Just to clarify, do you have an issue with using 2 front stock manifolds on am engine instead of a front and a rear (cuz now they be left and right...)

Not being completely familiar with the car in question (stock engine, swap, etc.?) I wouldn't have an issue if it had 2 "front stock manifolds" instead of a "stock" "front and a rear". To me, those are stock to the car/engine. 

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