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Exhaust manifold swaps

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39 minutes ago, Originalsterm said:

 

Is your point the cam can be used like "re-purposed material" since it was original to the car, just not satisfying the same function?  I think the "old" rules would agree with you, but the new rules with things falling under the FPV system step on that creativity.

Nope. My opinion is that it's a "stock" or "OE" cam for that engine. It's just a "stock" or "OE" cam in a different place in the head. 

You can legal reconfigure ports and lap valves and balance and a number of other things to get more performance from an engine. To me, using a "stock" or "OE" cam to that engine to control the valve timing on the opposite (intake or exhaust valves) should be no points. 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Nope. My opinion is that it's a "stock" or "OE" cam for that engine. It's just a "stock" or "OE" cam in a different place in the head. 

You can legal reconfigure ports and lap valves and balance and a number of other things to get more performance from an engine. To me, using a "stock" or "OE" cam to that engine to control the valve timing on the opposite (intake or exhaust valves) should be no points. 

 

 

 

Agreed. Similar to switching top hats on some vehicles to gain more negative camber.

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9 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Nope. My opinion is that it's a "stock" or "OE" cam for that engine. It's just a "stock" or "OE" cam in a different place in the head. 

You can legal reconfigure ports and lap valves and balance and a number of other things to get more performance from an engine. To me, using a "stock" or "OE" cam to that engine to control the valve timing on the opposite (intake or exhaust valves) should be no points.

 

Taken to the extreme, that logic would allow you to build a two engine four wheel drive monster for little or no points.

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Just now, Grufton said:

 

Taken to the extreme, that logic would allow you to build a two engine four wheel drive monster for little or no points.

I don't really understand how that would be possible but okay. 

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12 minutes ago, dimitri.mariutto said:

Agreed. Similar to switching top hats on some vehicles to gain more negative camber.

If you simply switched the intake and exhaust cam, then I agree that's a nothing. But running two exhaust cams...I think that's a something. 

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2 hours ago, Snorman said:

Nope. My opinion is that it's a "stock" or "OE" cam for that engine. It's just a "stock" or "OE" cam in a different place in the head. 

You can legal reconfigure ports and lap valves and balance and a number of other things to get more performance from an engine. To me, using a "stock" or "OE" cam to that engine to control the valve timing on the opposite (intake or exhaust valves) should be no points. 

 

 

 

I agree, with the caveat that you can’t add parts to the car without adding points. You can switch intake and exhaust because you’re using the same parts. If you change an intake to an exhaust and run two exhaust cams then you have added a new camshaft that wasn’t there to begin with. 

Edited by enginerd
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5 minutes ago, ross2004 said:

If you simply switched the intake and exhaust cam, then I agree that's a nothing. But running two exhaust cams...I think that's a something. 

 

1 minute ago, enginerd said:

I agree with the caveat that you can’t add parts to the car without adding points. You can switch intake and exhaust because you’re using the same parts. If you change an intake to an exhaust and run two exhaust cams then you have added a new camshaft that wasn’t there to begin with. 

So is using bulkhead panels and the hood to create an undertray and side skirts where there were "none to begin with". Allowed per interpretation of rule 4.7 for 0 points.

 

Rule 4.7. Repurposed Materials / Tech interpretation and enforcement are all repurposed materials that must be documented in photos and/or videos showing the complete repurposing process to be valued as no points. Any questionable items will be valued at materials cost.

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10 minutes ago, Snorman said:

I don't really understand how that would be possible but okay. 

 

See the Mosler Twinstar, allowing doubling of OE parts could eventually get here.

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16 minutes ago, dimitri.mariutto said:

 

So, is using bulkhead panels and the hood to create an undertray and side skirts where there were "none to begin with" allowed per interpretation of rule 4.7 for 0 points??

 

Rule 4.7. Repurposed Materials / Tech interpretation and enforcement are all repurposed materials that must be documented in photos and/or videos showing the complete repurposing process to be valued as no points. Any questionable items will be valued at materials cost.

That is absolutely OK if you don’t put another hood on the car. You can’t run two OE hoods (one of which is now side skirts) without paying points for one of them. 

Edited by enginerd
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34 minutes ago, Grufton said:

 

See the Mosler Twinstar, allowing doubling of OE parts could eventually get here.

Let's actually live in the really real world not some fairy tale land, okay? 

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20 minutes ago, enginerd said:

That is absolutely OK if you don’t put another hood on the car. You can’t run two OE hoods (one of which is now side skirts) without paying points for one of them. 

Says you.  😀

 

Nothing in the rules that says I can't continue using pieces/parts that I have replaced, is there? Except for stuff that maybe has 'swap' in the sentence. But even that is debatable. If I pay points for a non-OE radiator, I reserve the right to use my original radiator for anything else I want to do with it, like maybe turn it into an engine oil cooler.

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3 hours ago, dimitri.mariutto said:

Says you.  😀

 

Nothing in the rules that says I can't continue using pieces/parts that I have replaced, is there? Except for stuff that maybe has 'swap' in the sentence. But even that is debatable. If I pay points for a non-OE radiator, I reserve the right to use my original radiator for anything else I want to do with it, like maybe turn it into an engine oil cooler.

 

Uh no, that's been pretty clearly defined.  If you replace something on the car, by paying points or otherwise, the old part is Not eligible as repurposed material.  Even though I'm reasonably certain you're joking, that's a rumor that needs quashed.

Edited by SonsOfIrony
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I think we should just close up all the loopholes and stuff that isn't universal across all makes and models.  No special interpretations, no re-using this or that, just a value for the car and a list of stuff that costs points.  Anything not on the list gets assigned a value and applies to every use of that part.  

 

The fact that there is a debate about being able to run 2 exhaust cams or the way better exhaust manifolds off a different car for free is what is wrong with this series.  Way too many rule lawyers and interpretations.  If you don't have the two cams the engine came with inside the engine activating the valves they are supposed to activate, its a cam change and it costs points.  Should be that way for every car and you shouldn't have to do a bunch of detective work to figure out what special version of the rule book is being cleverly interpreted by the other teams.

 

How many point value parts have been allowed for free or reduced points for a certain team, car, situation?  I think it's time to get all the skeletons out of the closet. 

 

Maybe it's just me though.  🤷‍♂️

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33 minutes ago, shanehutton said:

I think we should just close up all the loopholes and stuff that isn't universal across all makes and models.  No special interpretations, no re-using this or that, just a value for the car and a list of stuff that costs points.  Anything not on the list gets assigned a value and applies to every use of that part.  

 

The fact that there is a debate about being able to run 2 exhaust cams or the way better exhaust manifolds off a different car for free is what is wrong with this series.  Way too many rule lawyers and interpretations.  If you don't have the two cams the engine came with inside the engine activating the valves they are supposed to activate, its a cam change and it costs points.  Should be that way for every car and you shouldn't have to do a bunch of detective work to figure out what special version of the rule book is being cleverly interpreted by the other teams.

 

How many point value parts have been allowed for free or reduced points for a certain team, car, situation?  I think it's time to get all the skeletons out of the closet. 

 

Maybe it's just me though.  🤷‍♂️

You are not the only one that thinks this way.   I agree.  

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2 hours ago, shanehutton said:

I think we should just close up all the loopholes and stuff that isn't universal across all makes and models.  No special interpretations, no re-using this or that, just a value for the car and a list of stuff that costs points.  Anything not on the list gets assigned a value and applies to every use of that part.  

 

The fact that there is a debate about being able to run 2 exhaust cams or the way better exhaust manifolds off a different car for free is what is wrong with this series.  Way too many rule lawyers and interpretations.  If you don't have the two cams the engine came with inside the engine activating the valves they are supposed to activate, its a cam change and it costs points.  Should be that way for every car and you shouldn't have to do a bunch of detective work to figure out what special version of the rule book is being cleverly interpreted by the other teams.

 

How many point value parts have been allowed for free or reduced points for a certain team, car, situation?  I think it's time to get all the skeletons out of the closet. 

 

Maybe it's just me though.  🤷‍♂️

Quoting again so y'all can read it again!

 

#like

 

#senditwithoemoritspoints

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15 hours ago, SonsOfIrony said:

 

Uh no, that's been pretty clearly defined.  If you replace something on the car, by paying points or otherwise, the old part is Not eligible as repurposed material.  Even though I'm reasonably certain you're joking, that's a rumor that needs quashed.

Please point out the rule which states this.

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29 minutes ago, dimitri.mariutto said:

Please point out the rule which states this.

 

It's been interpreted by tech.  More than once.  You can't put a fiberglass hood on a car, then use the steal roof skin as a splitter.  It only applies if you're removing something and not replacing it.

 

It hasn't been added to the new knowledge base apparently but they've been pretty clear about what you can and can't repurpose.  If you don't believe me, submit a question to the tech desk.

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23 hours ago, shanehutton said:

I think we should just close up all the loopholes and stuff that isn't universal across all makes and models.  No special interpretations, no re-using this or that, just a value for the car and a list of stuff that costs points.  Anything not on the list gets assigned a value and applies to every use of that part.  

 

The fact that there is a debate about being able to run 2 exhaust cams or the way better exhaust manifolds off a different car for free is what is wrong with this series.  Way too many rule lawyers and interpretations.  If you don't have the two cams the engine came with inside the engine activating the valves they are supposed to activate, its a cam change and it costs points.  Should be that way for every car and you shouldn't have to do a bunch of detective work to figure out what special version of the rule book is being cleverly interpreted by the other teams.

 

How many point value parts have been allowed for free or reduced points for a certain team, car, situation?  I think it's time to get all the skeletons out of the closet. 

 

Maybe it's just me though.  🤷‍♂️


I think this was part of the goal of the tech desk, so hopefully we're getting closer.

HOWEVER, my most recent question was both not answered and also not published. It was closed and I wasn't able to respond. It seems as though Tech is not obligated to answer all questions.

Edited by Slugworks Paul

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4 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said:


I think this was part of the goal of the tech desk, so hopefully we're getting closer.

HOWEVER, my most recent question was both not answered and also not published. It was closed and I wasn't able to respond. It seems as though Tech is not obligated to answer all questions.

 

From my experience, there's a "open ticket" link at the top of the tech desk response that will allow you to add additional comments.

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9 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said:


I think this was part of the goal of the tech desk, so hopefully we're getting closer.

HOWEVER, my most recent question was both not answered and also not published. It was closed and I wasn't able to respond. It seems as though Tech is not obligated to answer all questions.

 

Well pitter patter.

 

What'd ya ask?

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12 hours ago, SonsOfIrony said:

 

Well pitter patter.

 

What'd ya ask?

 

I asked about ABS module swaps - how many points. Although i hear rumblings that the TAC/BoD has discussed and established a value so I think my question is no longer relevant.

Edited by Slugworks Paul

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10 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:

 

I asked about ABS module swaps - how many points. Although i hear rumblings that the TAC/BoD has discussed and established a value so I think my question is no longer relevant.

Why not?

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