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miatas material points for hard tops?


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13 hours ago, SonsOfIrony said:

 

Can anyone with all their teeth drive a firebird?

yes but you have to have a mullet.

1 hour ago, Mazmarc said:

One of my design requirements was that the trunk be accessed because of the battery and fuel components. 

 

Hatch is hinged at the front using Mazda Tribute rear window hinges and fastened to the trunk lid at the back using two dzus fasteners, one on each side.

 

Trunk lid is completely gutted and is also dzus fastened so no hinges.

20190905_182553.jpg

I like that. I bet you could sell those... 

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Have you considered the magnitude of this interpretation? I would expect hundreds of builds/valuations to be effected...I suspect the vast majority or builders have considered this approach to be agai

I hope whichever server the tech desk is running on has a decent cooling system.

That's not what the Wikipedia entry I edited says.

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On 2/21/2020 at 2:00 PM, LuckyKid said:

Yeah, I edited my reply to take it out before you responded, but you got the comment on your quote.  I'm still jaded over the events of Road Atlanta 19 and the effects that has had on my paranoia since.  It significantly reduces the enjoyment of racing in CCES.  I decided to edit the comment so that I don't start another fight about it.

 

This should either put you guys at complete ease, or be infuriating. 

 

I have not heard of a single protest taken or enforced for an item that was claimed by the team, acknowledged by tech and given a value (including zero). 

 

No one should ever question you if you follow this. 

 

Make a list of every item in the car you have altered from OE (except by removal which is free), meaning how the car was delivered in 1990. For example if you run two exhaust cams I doubt Mazda delivered the car this way. Give Jay this list when you tech, have him sign it if you want. If people contest tech didn't give points correctly but you disclosed everything, the win is yours and points may be altered for your next event.

 

What happens in reality is we all like to just claim the items to tech we need to, and stuff we don't think are points are not spoken about. We fear tech will see something as points we didn't, and we will get a higher vpi than we wanted. If you get smacked operating this way, you accept the penalty and move on. 

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7 minutes ago, SonsOfIrony said:

 

Hmm.  Al I got was the automated response  last Tuesday.  Nothing since.  Wonder if the TAC is still discussing it.

 

@E. Tyler Pedersen?

@Jer?

 

I've made my notes in Tech Desk on most items and so has @red0

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2 hours ago, Black Magic said:

I have not heard of a single protest taken or enforced for an item that was claimed by the team, acknowledged by tech and given a value (including zero). 

 

No one should ever question you if you follow this. 

 

Make a list of every item in the car you have altered from OE (except by removal which is free), meaning how the car was delivered in 1990. For example if you run two exhaust cams I doubt Mazda delivered the car this way. Give Jay this list when you tech, have him sign it if you want. If people contest tech didn't give points correctly but you disclosed everything, the win is yours and points may be altered for your next event.

 

What happens in reality is we all like to just claim the items to tech we need to, and stuff we don't think are points are not spoken about. We fear tech will see something as points we didn't, and we will get a higher vpi than we wanted. If you get smacked operating this way, you accept the penalty and move on. 

 

I completely agree with everything you said as far as how things should be, but our experience contradicts most of that.

 

I have 16 items listed in the misc. section of our tech sheet and that continues to grow, but that in of itself isn't insurance.   We had our rear window included in our tech sheet at Atlanta, and approved yet the discussion is on page 10 now.   Removal isn't always free/allowed, see the rear of the car.  We've had two(maybe three) instances where a email tech ruling was deemed illegal at the track and we had to pull parts, and an instance in impound when our wing and splitter was measured and deemed illegal per the new interpretation which wasn't public at the time, we did not get tossed and I think Jay did handle this appropriately in impound.  In all of these instances I believe that Tech was operating in good faith, but outside forces were influencing decisions.  

 

Tech's ruling should be solid as a rock, but there have been times when that has been reversed at the track.  I am excited about TechDesk and the assurances of that.  I've only had one ruling on tech-desk reversed and it happened so fast that there was no financial impact.

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6 minutes ago, enginerd said:

For those of us who don’t know the inner workings of the tech desk, what does this mean?

 

A person from TAC (Andrew) and people from the board (Rich and I), Mike Chisek, Ray, Jay and Bill Strong have access to the admin part of the Tech Desk. We can make notes on tickets to help with questions. We take stuff to the TAC or BOD when Jay or Ray need help determining what direction to go. 

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13 minutes ago, E. Tyler Pedersen said:

 

A person from TAC (Andrew) and people from the board (Rich and I), Mike Chisek, Ray, Jay and Bill Strong have access to the admin part of the Tech Desk. We can make notes on tickets to help with questions. We take stuff to the TAC or BOD when Jay or Ray need help determining what direction to go. 

 

Am I correct in assuming that these "notes" aren't visible to standard users, and we only get the final response once a decision is made?

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Tyler since we are talking about the workings of the tech desk I had entered another one over the weekend and it had shown it was accepted but I got no email of confirmation?

So now I can't check status since I don't know the ticket number. It had a picture attached with my question.

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1 hour ago, LuckyKid said:

 

I completely agree with everything you said as far as how things should be, but our experience contradicts most of that.

 

I have 16 items listed in the misc. section of our tech sheet and that continues to grow, but that in of itself isn't insurance.   We had our rear window included in our tech sheet at Atlanta, and approved yet the discussion is on page 10 now.   Removal isn't always free/allowed, see the rear of the car.  We've had two(maybe three) instances where a email tech ruling was deemed illegal at the track and we had to pull parts, and an instance in impound when our wing and splitter was measured and deemed illegal per the new interpretation which wasn't public at the time, we did not get tossed and I think Jay did handle this appropriately in impound.  In all of these instances I believe that Tech was operating in good faith, but outside forces were influencing decisions.  

 

Tech's ruling should be solid as a rock, but there have been times when that has been reversed at the track.  I am excited about TechDesk and the assurances of that.  I've only had one ruling on tech-desk reversed and it happened so fast that there was no financial impact.

 

Just to clarify your experience, since I wasn't there, are you saying 

 

1) You went through your yearly tech, got a value, and post race you were thrown out for a value change on something you fully disclosed

 

2) Showed up to yearly tech, found something you thought was not points or lower points is points and had to pull it off or run with penalty lap(s) 

 

3) You were told after a race something you thought was free or x points is actually more points, or you didn't fully disclose something you assumed was "stock\no value" and you had to rework your car for the next race. 

 

I am saying in the history of champcar I cannot recall #1 happening. #2 and #3 are a part of racing life..... from pros to joes we  all recognize the constant work 2 and 3 create for competitive teams. I would suggest for the first race each year you carry a few stock items in your trailer to free up points if you push the rules that hard. This is part of pushing the rule boundaries and being unwilling to take any laps for a day. If #2 or #3 bothers you greatly, pro Motorsports will drive you insane....

 

I cannot imagine we would ever remove a win for something tech gave a value on given full disclosure of knoweldge. We used to have rules explicitly stating you could not protest a tech value, just undisclosed items. That is why I was saying to concentrate on full disclosure at first race of season, which will put it all past you (unless you can keep from changing car, requiring re tech each time....then it is on you).

 

I did forget to state that part removal cannot supercede the basic safety tech requirements. You are one of the few teams to push that boundary. The safety items will always have some subjective nature to them and Jay does a good job getting people to address them but still race that weekend (like you did).

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26 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

Just to clarify your experience, since I wasn't there, are you saying 

 

1) You went through your yearly tech, got a value, and post race you were thrown out for a value change on something you fully disclosed

 

2) Showed up to yearly tech, found something you thought was not points or lower points is points and had to pull it off or run with penalty lap(s) 

 

3) You were told after a race something you thought was free or x points is actually more points, or you didn't fully disclose something you assumed was "stock\no value" and you had to rework your car for the next race. 

 

I am saying in the history of champcar I cannot recall #1 happening. #2 and #3 are a part of racing life..... from pros to joes we  all recognize the constant work 2 and 3 create for competitive teams. I would suggest for the first race each year you carry a few stock items in your trailer to free up points if you push the rules that hard. This is part of pushing the rule boundaries and being unwilling to take any laps for a day. If #2 or #3 bothers you greatly, pro Motorsports will drive you insane....

 

I cannot imagine we would ever remove a win for something tech gave a value on given full disclosure of knoweldge. We used to have rules explicitly stating you could not protest a tech value, just undisclosed items. That is why I was saying to concentrate on full disclosure at first race of season, which will put it all past you (unless you can keep from changing car, requiring re tech each time....then it is on you).

 

I did forget to state that part removal cannot supercede the basic safety tech requirements. You are one of the few teams to push that boundary. The safety items will always have some subjective nature to them and Jay does a good job getting people to address them but still race that weekend (like you did).

Did you purposefully not comprehend what I wrote, or was it unintentional?

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2 hours ago, SonsOfIrony said:

 

Am I correct in assuming that these "notes" aren't visible to standard users, and we only get the final response once a decision is made?

 

That is correct. Internal system notes only. 

 

2 hours ago, 55mini said:

Tyler since we are talking about the workings of the tech desk I had entered another one over the weekend and it had shown it was accepted but I got no email of confirmation?

So now I can't check status since I don't know the ticket number. It had a picture attached with my question.

 

Ticket #229 

Tracking MXP-5G7-X66M

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1 hour ago, LuckyKid said:

Did you purposefully not comprehend what I wrote, or was it unintentional?

 

Did you purposefully not reply that your experience was either from example #1, #2, or #3? 

 

A team with a podium protested and removed for an item value given by tech, after being  fully disclosed in the logbook and data given to tech, would be a revolution causing event. Was any finish of yours removed in this way? That was my example #1. This was even told to all members in the past, that protests of this nature would be rejected.

 

I was trying to make the point that once you have a yearly tech if you do not change the car and you fully disclosed it you will not be protested for a value tech gave. If they gave it wrong it you will be the winner, they will ask you to update car for next time and life will go on.

 

You may be asked to change the car for the next race (after you podium). Interpretations change. You may have surprises with value for the first tech of the year (your only tech if you leave the car alone). This is part of life in all racing series. 

 

Acting in good faith and disclosing all, your "reputation" as you claimed will never be questioned. Your wins will never be encumbered. I have never heard of champ doing this. Examples 2 and 3 I gave will happen to any winning team and are just part of the deal.

 

Make sense now?

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20 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

Did you purposefully not reply that your experience was either from example #1, #2, or #3? 

 

A team with a podium protested and removed for an item value given by tech, after being  fully disclosed in the logbook and data given to tech, would be a revolution causing event. Was any finish of yours removed in this way? That was my example #1.

 

I was trying to make the point that once you have a yearly tech if you do not change the car and you fully disclosed it you will not be protested for a value tech gave. If they gave it wrong it you will be the winner, they will ask you to update car for next time and life will go on.

 

You may be asked to change the car for the next race (after you podium). Interpretations change. You may have surprises with value for the first tech of the year (your only tech if you leave the car alone). This is part of life in all racing series. 

 

Acting in good faith and disclosing all, your "reputation" as you claimed will never be questioned. Your wins will never be redadcted. I have never heard of champ doing this. Examples 2 and 3 I gave will happen to any winning team and are just part of the deal.

 

Make sense now? 

 

Is #1 really true?  I thought it's been made very clear on the forums and IRL at the races that tech is only signing off annually on Safety...but they are not scrutinizing and approving all modifications to the car.  That's why we have the "self regulated" by the racers situation at impound.  

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36 minutes ago, QuaTTro said:

 

Is #1 really true?  I thought it's been made very clear on the forums and IRL at the races that tech is only signing off annually on Safety...but they are not scrutinizing and approving all modifications to the car.  That's why we have the "self regulated" by the racers situation at impound.  

 

Tech is not there to do forensic science on your car for annual tech, it is your responsibility to disclose everything you did that was not stock, and was not material removal within the bounds of safety. They don't have time to do this, and thus disclosure is Paramount to our tech. They have the right and ability to give you a value based on those true facts, and it will be upheld if your presented data was true. They also have the right to tell you after a race, that they will be changing your vpi next time.

 

If you cheat tech on non disclosure or you falsify data (yeah my wing is one square foot, yeah that chassis spring is within .5" of stock size, yeah my 3.5 liter engine with a 3.3 liter valve cover is a 3.3...) it is the job of the protest process to point out your "errors". Tech will do you the favor of telling you your claims are full of you know what in yearly tech, but if you sneak stuff past them that isn't their fault or job to find in annual tech. No one tears a motor down in annual tech, if you lie about engine size or fail to claim that stroker the time for trial is post race protest.

 

Name a successful protest, and I bet we can point to the line item missing from the tech book where it was mysteriously left out of disclosure.....

 

Like I said, I have never heard of #1 happening in the history of champcar and chumpcar. If someone has an example share, but that fact is the basis of honest teams that disclose everything being able to drink beer in post race and have fun. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

Tech is not there to do forensic science on your car for annual tech, it is your responsibility to disclose everything you did that was not stock, and was not material removal within the bounds of safety. They don't have time to do this, and thus disclosure is Paramount to our tech. They have the right and ability to give you a value based on those true facts, and it will be upheld if your presented data was true. They also have the right to tell you after a race, that they will be changing your vpi next time.

 

If you cheat tech on non disclosure or you falsify data (yeah my wing is one square foot, yeah that chassis spring is within .5" of stock size, yeah my 3.5 liter engine with a 3.3 liter valve cover is a 3.3...) it is the job of the protest process to point out your "errors". Tech will do you the favor of telling you your claims are full of you know what in yearly tech, but if you sneak stuff past them that isn't their fault or job to find in annual tech. No one tears a motor down in annual tech, if you lie about engine size or fail to claim that stroker the time for trial is post race protest.

 

Name a successful protest, and I bet we can point to the line item missing from the tech book where it was mysteriously left out of disclosure.....

 

Thanks for the clarification.  I fully agree with you

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They crawled all over and under my car , and adjusted my points  to match what they found , then entered the tally on my tech sheet....found 12 points I didn't know to claim....we squeezed in right under 500 , so no big whoop....Sebring last year...sorta forensic....

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