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miatas material points for hard tops?

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45 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Why not just add "OEM" to the rulebook ?!?!?  

IMO "OEM" is meaningless. The proper reference should be "OE", "original equipment" or "original manufacturer specifications".

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46 minutes ago, red0 said:


OK, yea I thought I remembered it being your team. 

 If you want, I can propose to the TAC that we submit a petition to improve how the rule is written: 
 

4.3.2:  Aerodynamic devices not to exceed width of bodywork (fenders, bumpers, doors) 'as originally manufactured' or 'per manufactures specs' 

You too can write petitions to help clarify rules. 

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSe6a6aMT6_KWLSdK-hSWPHwdR0J5vmz83ObSOvzqWQeHhUGwQ/viewform 

 

14 minutes ago, Snorman said:

IMO "OEM" is meaningless. The proper reference should be "OE", "original equipment" or "original manufacturer specifications".

 

@Snorman

See my recommendation above. 

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26 minutes ago, red0 said:

 

 

@Snorman

See my recommendation above. 

He wrote that petition last year if I am not mistaken..

 

 

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1 hour ago, red0 said:

 

Just curious, was it your team that had a team member's head sliced open from their own cars giant wing required a trip to the hospital for stitches? I think I read that happened to a team last year, but I don't remember which team it was. 

 

If the wing was any narrower (like it is now), it would've taken my ear and not got me square in the back of the head.  Wing or no wing, I shouldn't have been standing there!

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You guys also need to remember that the current owner of the tech desk does not intend to and thus far has not posted all questions/articles to the knowledge base. 

 

Only select issues are chosen to be posted for all to see.

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3 minutes ago, Huggy said:

 

Page 121 #46

 

Oh, I gotcha. I thought you were saying there was one for 4.3.2 specifically. 

 

2 minutes ago, Huggy said:

You guys also need to remember that the current owner of the tech desk does not intend to and thus far has not posted all questions/articles to the knowledge base. 

 

Only select issues are chosen to be posted for all to see.

 

Who owns the tech desk? Bill?

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2 hours ago, LuckyKid said:

 

I'd agree but the rulebook is purposefully short, too short, so much so that a formal tech system had to be implemented to handle a deficient rule book. 

 

If making the rulebook short and hard to change was done so that rules are simple and consistent and then systems are implemented to completely undercut that, what the point?  Just make the rule book a few pages longer.

 

 

 

While there may be a few easy places to clarify the rules, you are also spending the same people's time answer questions and giving clarification on rules that we very clear.  In your Team build thread you mention that you're "waiting on a formal ruling on where the "header" stops and the free exhaust starts.  Then we will start cutting."

 

Have you ever seen an OEM Miata header that did not end at a flange?  Seems pretty obvious that after the flange is where the header stops.  Feel free to do anything you want after the flange.  Why would you need clarification on this?  

 

Granted...the CC staff aren't doing themselves any favors entertaining these obvious questions and giving an inch everywhere it's asked for.  

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13 minutes ago, Huggy said:

You guys also need to remember that the current owner of the tech desk does not intend to and thus far has not posted all questions/articles to the knowledge base. 

 

Only select issues are chosen to be posted for all to see.

 

I can understand not posting redundant answers, but anything new should be posted.  If something is "too controversial" to post, then maybe the wrong decision has been made, or the BCCR needs to be updated.

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21 minutes ago, QuaTTro said:

Have you ever seen an OEM Miata header that did not end at a flange?  Seems pretty obvious that after the flange is where the header stops.  Feel free to do anything you want after the flange.  Why would you need clarification on this?  

 

Granted...the CC staff aren't doing themselves any favors entertaining these obvious questions and giving an inch everywhere it's asked for.  

Yes, the JDM header is a Tri-Y style with a flange between the 4 to 2 and the 2 to 1 collector.  

 

This is the only BCCR definition:  4.7.4. Exhaust systems downstream of the header/exhaust manifold (from the collector back) are open and do not count towards total points

 

So which collector?

 

Based on the rule as its written it would either be after the first collector: 1a and 1b, or after the last #5, unless #2 is considered a collector because it joins the two streams, even temporarily.  There is no wording about a flange, but my assumption is that the ruling will be that the header stops after 3, which would have no basis in the written rule, but is likely the logical consensus.  

 

Whats more, I have enough tubing that I could cut and weld and make something that looks completely different.  Would that still be zero points?

 



Attached is write up I as asked to send tech-desk about the header.


When does the header stop and become the exhaust (IE: No points to add/modify)?

Can I remove material and weld the header as its defined above for no points, so long as I don't add material?

I've attached an image with the following parts.

1A = Collector for 1-4
1B = Collector for 2-3
2 = O2 Sensor Collector
3 = Upper Exit Flange
4 = Lower Entry Flange
5 = 2 to 1 Collector
6 = Lower Exit Flange

Based on this image can you identify at which point its considered the header, and which point its considered the exhaust?

90-00 JDM Manifold.JPG

Edited by LuckyKid
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2 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Real gray/fuzzy area using the JDM exhaust manifold for this question.

That's the manifold I have to use by rule.  It is a gray/fuzzy area and that is why I need a ruling.   I am moving the exhaust out behind the front tire and along the side, so I need to modify this thing.

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4 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Real gray/fuzzy area using the JDM exhaust manifold for this question.

I disagree, it would have been at best gray/fuzzy to use the USDM manifold since he's running the JDM engine.

Edited by Grufton
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5 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

That's the manifold I have to use by rule.  It is a gray/fuzzy area and that is why I need a ruling.   I am moving the exhaust out behind the front tire and along the side, so I need to modify this thing.

Your answer was probably point 3 and MY feelings on the matter don't amass to beans. That is why we have tech.

 

In full disclosure, our latest engine is the first mail order bride for this team, we ran the JDM exhaust manifold but it was not a dramatic reconfiguration nor worth any power, not only that, it bolted up to the rest of our USDM system.

Edited by Team Infiniti

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20 minutes ago, SonsOfIrony said:

I can understand not posting redundant answers, but anything new should be posted.  If something is "too controversial" to post, then maybe the wrong decision has been made, or the BCCR needs to be updated.

 Yes, I am so glad they don't post redundant answers.(eye-roll)
https://champcar.org/tech/knowledgebase.php?article=62
https://champcar.org/tech/knowledgebase.php?article=69
62-

"A.
You can switch from a dual-mass flywheel to a single mass flywheel for zero points if the flywheel is steel.
Aluminum flywheels are 10 points. 
The clutch needs to remain OEM diameter and the same number of clutch packs as delivered from the factory."

69-

"Non-OEM steel replacement flywheels are free
Non-OEM Aluminum or lightweight replacement flywheels are 10 points
Non-OEM size clutches are not allowed - at the present
Increased number of clutch packs (beyond OEM) are not allowed

Flywheels may not be modified"

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2 minutes ago, morganf said:

 

 Yes, I am so glad they don't post redundant answers.(eye-roll)

At least the second (and contradicting) ruling on the aero element width was deleted...

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Very easy.  When you order the JDM header from the parts counter, it will come as you pictured from the point it meets the engine down to point 3.  Therefore that is the header.  It doesn't arrive in 2 pieces.  

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46 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Yes, the JDM header is a Tri-Y style with a flange between the 4 to 2 and the 2 to 1 collector.  

 

This is the only BCCR definition:  4.7.4. Exhaust systems downstream of the header/exhaust manifold (from the collector back) are open and do not count towards total points

 

So which collector?

 

Based on the rule as its written it would either be after the first collector: 1a and 1b, or after the last #5, unless #2 is considered a collector because it joins the two streams, even temporarily.  There is no wording about a flange, but my assumption is that the ruling will be that the header stops after 3, which would have no basis in the written rule, but is likely the logical consensus.  

 

Whats more, I have enough tubing that I could cut and weld and make something that looks completely different.  Would that still be zero points?

 



Attached is write up I as asked to send tech-desk about the header.


When does the header stop and become the exhaust (IE: No points to add/modify)?

Can I remove material and weld the header as its defined above for no points, so long as I don't add material?

I've attached an image with the following parts.

1A = Collector for 1-4
1B = Collector for 2-3
2 = O2 Sensor Collector
3 = Upper Exit Flange
4 = Lower Entry Flange
5 = 2 to 1 Collector
6 = Lower Exit Flange

Based on this image can you identify at which point its considered the header, and which point its considered the exhaust?

90-00 JDM Manifold.JPG

Just IMO, this seems like a clear attempt to completely wordsmith what almost everybody thinks is an obvious provision of the BCCR and it's pretty transparent what you're trying to do with this. 

I'm not sure who would agree that the "collector" is the midpipe that bolts to the header collector flange. A "collector" doesn't have to be a single section of pipe. 

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2 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Just IMO, this seems like a clear attempt to completely wordsmith what almost everybody thinks is an obvious provision of the BCCR and it's pretty transparent what you're trying to do with this. 

I'm not sure who would agree that the "collector" is the midpipe that bolts to the header collector flange. A "collector" doesn't have to be a single section of pipe. 

 

I'm not 100% sure I agree with you here.

 

Going back to the catalytic converter manifold idea, is your opinion still that the "flange" is the end of the manifold (aka the converter is part of the un-modifiable exhaust)?

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Just now, Huggy said:

 

I'm not 100% sure I agree with you here.

 

Going back to the catalytic converter manifold idea, is your opinion still that the "flange" is the end of the manifold (aka the converter is part of the un-modifiable exhaust)?

I'm not talking about another manifold, I'm talking about the picture above. It's 2 pieces. Clearly the section that bolts to the head and ends at a flange where it is 4-into-2 is the "header" (manifold). The piece that bolts to it is not a "header" (manifold) or part of the header/manifold. 

I think the converter discussion is separate from this.

78f9ee14e451301cc7eaece20a47f914.jpg.f88

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3 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Just IMO, this seems like a clear attempt to completely wordsmith what almost everybody thinks is an obvious provision of the BCCR and it's pretty transparent what you're trying to do with this. 

I'm not sure who would agree that the "collector" is the midpipe that bolts to the header collector flange. A "collector" doesn't have to be a single section of pipe. 

I'm not trying to wordsmith.  I sent a picture with numbers to get a clear ruling since the actual words of the rule don't support what you say is an obvious provision.  If the provision is obvious that its the upper manifold assembly, then why would the written rule be talking about collectors?!?!

 

After getting the largest teardown in ChampCar history on a fishing expedition at our second race, one in which members of the podium (your team) and the CEO wanted us tossed for SOMETHING, I want to make sure that I am following the rules 100% and the rules as they are written do not have that level of clarity.  Its exhausting getting these rulings and clarifications, but that is what we have to do to be confident that our car is 100% legal.  

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1 hour ago, Huggy said:

 

Page 121 #46

 

I wrote that last year and I was told it did not need to be added into the BCCR because the rules already stated that.    They did not and the longer it's not in there the more obvious it becomes.    Especially when tech states you can start mixing and matching parts from anything in the generation.   

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