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Kjhall

Understanding the rules..

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I'm new to champcar racing, but have run some other series and other types of racing. 

 

I'm looking to put together a 78 Camaro to run at a few of the races this year but cannot say that i totally understand the rules on what we are allowed to run. From what ive read that car can be run with a 350 and saginaw trans as long as thats what came in that car from factory. Assuming that that is the requirements, does the year of the motor matter as long as the motor remains equivalent to what was factory installed. 

 

Basically my question is.. if i buy a car with no motor and trans and per the vin that car came with a 350 and 4 speed and as long as i install a 350 and 4 speed back in that car, it will be legal per the champcar rules. 

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6 minutes ago, Kjhall said:

I'm new to champcar racing, but have run some other series and other types of racing. 

 

I'm looking to put together a 78 Camaro to run at a few of the races this year but cannot say that i totally understand the rules on what we are allowed to run. From what ive read that car can be run with a 350 and saginaw trans as long as thats what came in that car from factory. Assuming that that is the requirements, does the year of the motor matter as long as the motor remains equivalent to what was factory installed. 

 

Basically my question is.. if i buy a car with no motor and trans and per the vin that car came with a 350 and 4 speed and as long as i install a 350 and 4 speed back in that car, it will be legal per the champcar rules. 

 I’ll start with you can’t pick and choose a year like that, for example, don’t come with a vortec engine without declaring the heads/intake/carb as a swap

Edited by Team Infiniti

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45 minutes ago, Kjhall said:

I'm new to champcar racing, but have run some other series and other types of racing. 

 

I'm looking to put together a 78 Camaro to run at a few of the races this year but cannot say that i totally understand the rules on what we are allowed to run. From what ive read that car can be run with a 350 and saginaw trans as long as thats what came in that car from factory. Assuming that that is the requirements, does the year of the motor matter as long as the motor remains equivalent to what was factory installed. 

 

Basically my question is.. if i buy a car with no motor and trans and per the vin that car came with a 350 and 4 speed and as long as i install a 350 and 4 speed back in that car, it will be legal per the champcar rules. 

You are correct. Here are the general steps. 

1) You pick a car and year on the VPI table, 78 Camaro v8. There’s a point value for that car. 

2) You make this your starting point. Whatever a 78 v8 Camaro came with from Chevy is what you get. I don’t know what a Saginaw trans or a 350 are, but if they appeared together on a 1978 v8 Camaro, then you can use them.
3) Make changes as desired and pay points for those changes. Don’t want a Saginaw trans anymore? 25 points to swap it for something else. Want big non-stock sway bars? Add them and add points. Keep going, up to 500 points. 
 

Also, you can’t use just any 350, it has to be the 78 Camaro 350 (or equivalent). If the 78 to 82 were all identical, you can use an 82. If there was an ‘83 350 with different heads, you cannot use an ‘83 350 even though it is a ‘350’.

Edited by enginerd

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Also, you don't need to worry about your vin but you do have to use a combination that was available from the factory.

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14 hours ago, mender said:

Also, you don't need to worry about your vin but you do have to use a combination that was available from the factory.

Didn't this precedent just change?

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2 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said:

Didn't this precedent just change?

Maybe...

 

I would like to see an official statement that has both the BoD and TAC backing before depending on a post on the forum. As Jay said, tech doesn't have the power to change a rule by itself but interpretations seem to be much more malleable.

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19 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said:

Didn't this precedent just change?

 

I haven't heard of any rule requiring a Vin. 

 

I think people started mixing and matching all parts within a chassis run, which is not allowed. You have to build to a spec the OEM offered, and for exampe if that combo of engine and fuel tank didn't exist you can't mix and match without paying points for the non oe parts. 

 

That might have been misunderstood as Vin, but the was really meant to be "spec". 

 

Some of us through repairs have more than one Vin # on the car. Would I get either spec that way 😆

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22 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

I haven't heard of any rule requiring a Vin. 

 

I think people started mixing and matching all parts within a chassis run, which is not allowed. You have to build to a spec the OEM offered, and for exampe if that combo of engine and fuel tank didn't exist you can't mix and match without paying points for the non oe parts. 

 

That might have been misunderstood as Vin, but the was really meant to be "spec". 

 

Some of us through repairs have more than one Vin # on the car. Would I get either spec that way 😆

 

Yep, vins are not required. 

No mixing and matching, all your parts (that are not value add) must be OEM offered for a specific make/model/year/spec or trim level

Yea, the 'spec' or 'trim' can often get misunderstood as vin. 

Edited by red0
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37 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

I think people started mixing and matching all parts within a chassis run, which is not allowed. You have to build to a spec the OEM offered, and for exampe if that combo of engine and fuel tank didn't exist you can't mix and match without paying points for the non oe parts. 

 

*I think* somebody decided they wanted to allow diff ratio swaps within a platform (I won't speculate on why) and by doing so compromised the logic/intent of the rule and started the  snowball effect that inevitably leads to competitors pushing that confusion into transmissions and eventually it will lead to engines, suspensions etc. This is why you need to have an underlying philosophy that you stick to in all cases and try to avoid making exceptions, because it undermines your ability to say no to the people pushing the limits IMHO

Edited by ABR-Glen
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28 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

*I think* somebody decided they wanted to allow diff ratio swaps within a platform (I won't speculate on why) and by doing so compromised the logic/intent of the rule and started the  snowball effect that inevitably leads to competitors pushing that confusion into transmissions and eventually it will lead to engines, suspensions etc. This is why you need to have an underlying philosophy that you stick to in all cases and try to avoid making exceptions, because it undermines your ability to say no to the people pushing the limits IMHO

 

It is clear that diff ratio is open within platform, and that is the only part open to mix and matching within platform. 

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53 minutes ago, red0 said:

 

It is clear that diff ratio is open within platform, and that is the only part open to mix and matching within platform. 


Mixing and matching engine/trans combos is open per Tech. (see camaro thread)
 

I also posed this question to TAC;  If you do a platform swap, do you get the gear ratio options from both platforms?

Edited by MoparBoyy

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I added a place on the swap sheet to put VIN's just in case you wanted to put the number for the donating cars parts to better help explain your swap. 
It just assists the tech inspectors and is not required.

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23 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said:

Mixing and matching engine/trans combos is open per Tech. (see camaro thread)
 

I also posed this question to TAC;  If you do a platform swap, do you get the gear ratio options from both platforms?

 

Things posted on the forum are not official, and the rule book which is official says otherwise. 

Are you Alex, that posted the question in the Tech Desk yesterday?  I forwarded a question to the TAC, but the information provided was not sufficient to get anywhere. 

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16 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said:


Mixing and matching engine/trans combos is open per Tech. (see camaro thread)
 

I also posed this question to TAC;  If you do a platform swap, do you get the gear ratio options from both platforms?

 

Define what you mean as platform... This is harder than many people think and depends on the car. You would need to submit what car you are thinking of.

 

For example, NA chassis Miata is hard, because they had two distinct packages that could be bolted into either body shell (90 to 93, 94+) and you could literally build an OEM copy (even visually identical) of one package using the shell from other. 

 

Another example, the rules show separate vpi rx7 and rx7 turbo. They get treated as unique chassis with separate swap vpi, they are not the same "chassis" for us despite being pretty much the same body shell.

 

Or do you mean can I run a 2nd gen Camaro diff in a 3rd gen. Those don't use the same body shell physically and are not considered the same spec when claiming for a swapped engine. 

 

The question you are asking also determines the chassis value swap teams would need to use, and what spec they could draw on. The swap calc "chassis" would tell you this, but we need a list of what we consider "common chassis" to make this easier for folks to know (what year and models champcar considers to be a common chassis). 

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if you are claiming a platform swap:  you have to take the engine/trans/diff/fuel from the new platform.  the new platform now comes with new gear ratios. 

 

Do you get to use only the new platform ratios, or the old platform ratios, or both?  I don't think what kind of car matters, you are paying the points for the platform swap.

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1 minute ago, MoparBoyy said:

if you are claiming a platform swap:  you have to take the engine/trans/diff/fuel from the new platform.  the new platform now comes with new gear ratios. 

 

Do you get to use only the new platform ratios, or the old platform ratios, or both?  I don't think what kind of car matters, you are paying the points for the platform swap.

Platform needs to be defined. Is it defined in the BCCR?

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1 hour ago, red0 said:

 

It is clear that diff ratio is open within platform, and that is the only part open to mix and matching within platform. 

 

Everyone except tech....

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Common sense.

 

 

The “platform “ term does need better definition. The Ford Fox “Platform “ encompasses many make and models. The Thunderbird, Mustang and many other cars share drive  train, brakes, K member, rear axles, fuel tanks, interior etc. from the 80’s interchange. I seriously doubt this would be excepted as a Platform interchangeably If I show up to a race with a Thunderbird fuel tank in my Mustang. 

19 hours ago, enginerd said:

Platform needs to be defined. Is it defined in the BCCR?

 

Edited by Cam Benty

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27 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said:

if you are claiming a platform swap:  you have to take the engine/trans/diff/fuel from the new platform.  the new platform now comes with new gear ratios. 

 

Do you get to use only the new platform ratios, or the old platform ratios, or both?  I don't think what kind of car matters, you are paying the points for the platform swap.

Rear diff ratios are already open within a platform.

 

For example, if a 4.10 was only available in the 4 cylinder tunachucker, but you have a v8 tunachucker with a 3.55 rear end, you can already use the 4.10 rearend.

 

Or at least that's how I understood it.

 

 

P.s. there is no old or new platform.  The platform rule is talking about staying within 1 platform and just allowing to switch to a different spec within that platform.

 

I.e. taking a 4 cylinder mustang and automatic transmission and converting it to a 5.0 with t5.  You would just take the 5.0 t5 point value.  Same platform.

Edited by wvumtnbkr
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32 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Platform needs to be defined. Is it defined in the BCCR?

"4.6. PLATFORM SWAP

4.6.1. As an alternative to an engine swap, teams may qualify for a platform swap. A platform swap is defined as replacing the original components with all the components from the same chassis family (i.e. – 318 to 325 BMW engine swaps or 2.8L to 5.7L Chevy Camaro). To qualify as a platform swap, all of the differing vehicle components must be swapped to match the new platform. This includes engine, transmission, differential, suspension, fuel tank, etc. The VPI of the car will now be based on the car and engine combination as presented to tech, regardless of what engine may have been installed originally. No swap surcharges shall be applied to platform swaps."

 

My understanding is that early on, people were wanting to use a particular factory offering but were unable to buy that car. John originally said that you could duplicate the factory built car using another shell but it had to include everything down to the correct cigarette lighter. I think that was his concession re: using the car's VIN to check what it came from the factory with: you could put together a car but it had to be an accurate duplicate and not a mix and match.

 

After our win at Spokane, I watched some video from one of the other cars and it was quite obvious that it (an E36) was not using the stock diff because it was being shifted into 5th at about 118 mph. Pretty sure that wasn't the only car, and the end result years later is that OEM diff ratios are now allowed regardless of what the combo came with. 

 

There has always been and likely always will be people who push for loose interpretations. At one time  there was a note about "strained" interpretations to cover things like claiming that your manual car actually was an auto car (-75 points) and had a transmission swap (+25 pts), with that person getting a better transmission than the stock one plus a 50 point deduction. I think VINs were mentioned then as well to check on this kind of chicanery. Maybe Bill Strong can remember more of the details on that one.

 

Some say that interpretation is king, others insist that rules be written clearly and enforced to the letter. Champcar has to decide where they want to draw the line. Part of that might be to decide whether the line should be draw in sand or in stone.

 

 

Edited by mender

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The platform swap rule also helps to create a boundary for engine swapping a lower performance model.  

 

For example, the platform swap rule in addition to the highest vpi for engine swaps stops builders from recreating a higher performance car than a stock vehicle.

 

There were teams who used the 4 banger e30 and swapped in the 6 cylinder for less points than the stock 6 cylinder was valued at.

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8 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Rear diff ratios are already open within a platform.

 

For example, if a 4.10 was only available in the 4 cylinder tunachucker, but you have a v8 tunachucker with a 3.55 rear end, you can already use the 4.10 rearend.

 

Or at least that's how I understood it.

 

 

P.s. there is no old or new platform.  The platform rule is talking about staying within 1 platform and just allowing to switch to a different spec within that platform.

 

I.e. taking a 4 cylinder mustang and automatic transmission and converting it to a 5.0 with t5.  You would just take the 5.0 t5 point value.  Same platform.

 

except thats not what i'm talking about.   i'll give example:

 

I have a 1979 mustang, but i want to install the 95 mustang drive train into;

 

I'm taking the engine, transmission, differental, and fuel tank from the 95 and installing it in the 79.  per the rules i have to claim the value of the 95.  Now;  do i get the Diff ratio options from both 79 (fox platform) and 95?  or only the 95? (sn95 platform)

 

i dont know BMWs, but i think this swap setup happens alot in Miatas too, people running the NB platform in a NA body.

 

Edited by MoparBoyy

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That is not a platform swap.

 

That is an engine and trans swap.

 

That's a hard no go on the fuel tank.

 

That would also be a dif swap.

Edited by wvumtnbkr
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Platform swaps are like an 87 camaro with a 4 cylinder  versus an 87 camaro with a v8.  Not intergenerational.

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3 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

That is not a platform swap.

 

That is an engine and trans swap.

 

That's a hard no go on the fuel tank.

 

That would also be a dif swap.

 

how is that not a platform swap?   I think even PartsBadger has claimed this with his NA miata.  hes starting at the VPI of a NB because he has the entire drivetrain out of a NB in his NA car.  I've always been aware thats how it is.

Edited by MoparBoyy

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