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Which defeats the main purpose of the tech desk  

Ok, so got a response from tech:   "You can swap to a diff outside your platform if that diff is used in a car that is on the VPI list for 25 points.A diff not found on the VPI list (OS Gike

You are correct you don't stop ,as I read through this I find not a scrap of truth. I do not know where you dream this stuff up.

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12 hours ago, Snorman said:

Does the 25 points for a differential include axles?

Also for a RWD application, would an entire rear axle assembly be included in 25 points for a differential?

 

Questions for Tech. 

 

Only thing we got approval for was the diff guts that goes into our oem housing.

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24 minutes ago, Gkuhn41 said:

 

Questions for Tech. 

 

Only thing we got approval for was the diff guts that goes into our oem housing.

Probably not a bad idea to get more detail as to how each type of diff is handled:

1. Live axle

2. IRS - centre section only?

3. Transaxle - major component so 25 points would cover either trans or diff mods or both.

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4 hours ago, mender said:

Probably not a bad idea to get more detail as to how each type of diff is handled:

1. Live axle

2. IRS - centre section only?

3. Transaxle - major component so 25 points would cover either trans or diff mods or both.

 

Here's an unpublished ruling I got on an item related to #3.

 

Q:  "How many points will be charged for a 1988 Porsche 944S to swap in the transaxle from a 1989 Porsche 944S2?"

 

A:  "same platform - a different model 25 points for diff only.  Any additional components moved over would be additional points."

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3 minutes ago, Grufton said:

 

Here's an unpublished ruling I got on an item related to #3.

 

Q:  "How many points will be charged for a 1988 Porsche 944S to swap in the transaxle from a 1989 Porsche 944S2?"

 

A:  "same platform - a different model 25 points for diff only.  Any additional components moved over would be additional points."

John Condren said that transaxles are 25 points because they are a single major component. Your ruling is unpublished, therefore it doesn't exist. :)

 

Same thing as swapping gears and LSD, is still only 25 points despite extra components.

 

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"Differential swap: 25pts for any diff. not originally available 
for your year, make, and model or chassis generation "

 

Did your car come with a  LSD? If yes then zero points for that exact LSD.

If no 25 pts for any diff.

 

So NC Miata can use a OEM LSD for zero points but any other diff is 25 pts.

A Datsun that never had a LSD can use any diff for 25 pts (Subaru diff from a car on list or OSGiken)

 

 

"
(excluding specialty high-performance models not listed on 
the VPI table)
"

 

Not sure about this section, but I assume that is to clarify that a E46 can't use the M3 diff. I think this is caused a confusion. I think my question was badly written and the answer I got was not really related.

 

 

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I asked to replace 4 lug axles that was Identical in every dimension to the 5 lug axles that I wanted to use.  25 points.

 

Same bearings. Same retainers. Same C clip. 25 points. The addition of one lug stud is 25 points. 
 

Now teams can replace and entire rear end for the same points Going from 4 to 5 lugs on an axle.

 

Is this OSGiken or the other unit being spoken of a Torsen style Differential? If so can someone show the VPI car it came from? Or have I missed a new ruling in the last few months?

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27 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

I am not sure it has to come from a car from the list, where does it say that?

 

In my case it's just the actual diff, same housing, same axels, same everything

It was absolutely the case until recently. The wording changed some when Bill started editing the rulebook and now it doesn’t look like the diff must come from another vehicle. But there is some odd wording which still seems to hint at that requirement. 

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My Goodness it just does not stop. 
 

Can someone explain why going from 4 to 5 lugs on an axle is the same points as an entire rear diff aftermarket assembly? 
 

I have asked about a few other items for my car and have been denied or ignored  while other cars haves had no points assessed for the same items.  I have had Points assessed to a car I was building  that never made the track. When I question the legitimacy of the rulings I get a belligerent or surly reply. 
 

The favoritism is comical at times. We can address exhaust headers, rear differentials, weight favoritism,  huge brakes, aftermarket ECU’s and anti lock brakes systems but cannot use points for fuel. We make changes constantly but hear from the protectionists the fuel issue is beyond reproach because it will upset the delicate balance of competition. What balance? 
4 cars do the majority of the winning yet these cars get no points assessed, no BoP or have weight doctored to ensure there continued Winning. When teams ask for an OPPORTUNITY to use points for fuel there is a scream from the forum mafia how this will be a detriment to the series with absolutely no evidence to the contrary. Just ignorant rhetoric. 
 

And we wonder why we continue to lose teams.  
 


 

 

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2 minutes ago, Cam Benty said:

My Goodness it just does not stop. 
 

Can someone explain why going from 4 to 5 lugs on an axle is the same points as an entire rear diff aftermarket assembly? 
 

I have asked about a few other items for my car and have been denied or ignored  while other cars haves had no points assessed for the same items.  I have had Points assessed to a car I was building  that never made the track. When I question the legitimacy of the rulings I get a belligerent or surly reply. 
 

The favoritism is comical at times. We can address exhaust headers, rear differentials, weight favoritism,  huge brakes, aftermarket ECU’s and anti lock brakes systems but cannot use points for fuel. We make changes constantly but hear from the protectionists the fuel issue is beyond reproach because it will upset the delicate balance of competition. What balance? 
4 cars do the majority of the winning yet these cars get no points assessed, no BoP or have weight doctored to ensure there continued Winning. When teams ask for an OPPORTUNITY to use points for fuel there is a scream from the forum mafia how this will be a detriment to the series with absolutely no evidence to the contrary. Just ignorant rhetoric. 
 

And we wonder why we continue to lose teams.  
 


 

 

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10 hours ago, Cam Benty said:

My Goodness it just does not stop. 
 

Can someone explain why going from 4 to 5 lugs on an axle is the same points as an entire rear diff aftermarket assembly? 
 

I have asked about a few other items for my car and have been denied or ignored  while other cars haves had no points assessed for the same items.  I have had Points assessed to a car I was building  that never made the track. When I question the legitimacy of the rulings I get a belligerent or surly reply. 
 

The favoritism is comical at times. We can address exhaust headers, rear differentials, weight favoritism,  huge brakes, aftermarket ECU’s and anti lock brakes systems but cannot use points for fuel. We make changes constantly but hear from the protectionists the fuel issue is beyond reproach because it will upset the delicate balance of competition. What balance? 
4 cars do the majority of the winning yet these cars get no points assessed, no BoP or have weight doctored to ensure there continued Winning. When teams ask for an OPPORTUNITY to use points for fuel there is a scream from the forum mafia how this will be a detriment to the series with absolutely no evidence to the contrary. Just ignorant rhetoric. 
 

And we wonder why we continue to lose teams.  

 

Enlighten me, what are the 4 cars?

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So I happened to have a similar tech desk question in at the same time.  I have not received a response, but as I read the current rules and the interpretation:

Transaxle swap - 25 pts.  I have a choice of two, one has no factory LSD option, one does have a factory LSD option - they are two different parts/cases/families

 

Option 1 - transaxle w/no factory LSD 25 pts, then add 25 pts for the aftermarket LSD and in this case, the stock, original axles can be used - total 50 pts. (mounts included w/swap)

 

Option 2 - transaxle w/factory LSD 25 pts, LSD comes with the box but...different axles required at 25 pts for the pair as they are "non-OE" for the car - total 50 pts (mounts included w/swap)

 

While technically Option 2 is a slightly stronger box, the availability of custom axles can be a hassle.  In both cases, the LSD option is a torsen type.   Most of the used factory LSD's have been destroyed by owners, it is discontinued new and the last price shown is $2,868.57.  Aftermarket LSD for the option 1 transaxle - $500 - $1200, aftermarket LSD for the option 2 transaxle $850 - $1500.  In both cases OBX Chinesium vs. Quaife.

 

While I would certainly prefer to pick up a "good used" LSD, in this case (and I suspect in many cases) the aftermarket offers a much less expensive option.  Welding the stock open diff is till the "0" point option just as it has been.  Again, options to build cars exist, point use is a choice. (except for fuel!!!)

 

As I read it for non-transaxle applications:

For the Nissan & BMW peeps, you can swap the IRS center section for 25 pts - but it's 25 points more if it requires different axles (and changing inner CV's only makes them "different axles").  In the case of a live axle (big american iron typically) swapping in an LSD that REQUIRES different axles is 25 for the LSD & 25 for the axles.  If the axles are not needed, you can use the existing OE axles for "0" points.

 

And my opinion is just that and worth what you paid for it! 

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11 hours ago, Cam Benty said:

My Goodness it just does not stop. 
 

Can someone explain why going from 4 to 5 lugs on an axle is the same points as an entire rear diff aftermarket assembly? 
 

I have asked about a few other items for my car and have been denied or ignored  while other cars haves had no points assessed for the same items.  I have had Points assessed to a car I was building  that never made the track. When I question the legitimacy of the rulings I get a belligerent or surly reply. 
 

The favoritism is comical at times. We can address exhaust headers, rear differentials, weight favoritism,  huge brakes, aftermarket ECU’s and anti lock brakes systems but cannot use points for fuel. We make changes constantly but hear from the protectionists the fuel issue is beyond reproach because it will upset the delicate balance of competition. What balance? 
4 cars do the majority of the winning yet these cars get no points assessed, no BoP or have weight doctored to ensure there continued Winning. When teams ask for an OPPORTUNITY to use points for fuel there is a scream from the forum mafia how this will be a detriment to the series with absolutely no evidence to the contrary. Just ignorant rhetoric. 
 

And we wonder why we continue to lose teams.  
 


 

 

  You are correct you don't stop ,as I read through this I find not a scrap of truth. I do not know where you dream this stuff up.

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The hard part of trying to decide how to rule on non OE differentials, what happens to cars with no OE limited slip differential? Do you allow them to swap in a carrier type similar to the field, or do they have to run open diff no matter how many points they have to spare? This will end up being a larger concern for FWD cars and new cars with "simulated LSD" (brake function).  RWD cars are slightly easier to solve without the need to fit the differential\carrier in the OE trans case you have more options (take entire rear differential housing from a donor car with LSD). 

 

Welded axles for RWD cars works, but it tough on equipment. The cars I have run with it use cheap differentials, and we go about a half dozen to a dozen races per diff. I have yet to race it on fwd with enough time to determine durability. 

 

Some FWD cars, like mine, have the advantage of a high performance model with a dedicated trans that has an LSD. For example, the SRT4 trans can swap in to a gen 1 neon, and uses a factory quaife diff. I need to check part numbers, but there is a decent chance this carrier is identical to the t350 trans used in the stock neon, allowing me to use a "LSD from a car on the vpi list" either way. This allows me to use a quaife either way. Not all FWD cars will have this luxury, I know Honda and Nissan FWD have LSD options but the list thins out from there. 

 

The first race neon I bought came with a quaife in it, as do many old spec neon cars. I paid less for this car race ready than the engine swap rules allow me to spend on a engine swap. Given the number of competitive cars with a stock LSD option that is at least decent, I think 25 points for a non oe unit is about fair. Keep in mind helical type differentials are in several of the cars that race in our series currently, and for 25 points I would assume most people would stay with their OE options vs turning to a non oe helical carrier like a quaife (well non oe for all you non srt4 owners). I don't see NA8 miatas for example throwing their torsen helical gears in the trans en mass and spending 25 points on a diff, vs spending those points elsewhere. 

 

We could try to ban end user serviceable diffs, to keep the costs and tuning down, but in reality people have the ability to tune even simple plate style diffs in their shop. I don't see this being a huge factor given our other hurdles to parity. 

 

If we want to attack something, maybe start with a list that shows what cars are able to run a "factory" LSD for 0 points. I bet there are some interesting interpretations there, and would argue an unaccounted for LSD vs open diff offers a bigger performance change than between two LSD designs of reasonable merit (leave poorly executed visco diffs out of this). 

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32 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 RWD cars are slightly easier to solve without the need to fit the differential\carrier in the OE trans case you have more options (take entire rear differential housing from a donor car with LSD). 

And IMO that is absolute and total bull cookies. 

For 25 points, you shouldn't get the diff, the carrier, the housing, the axles and everything in between. But I'm pretty sure that's what's happening in RWD cars. Claim 25 points for a diff that doesn't fit your make/model, so you get the entire assembly to make it work. Meaning, you can put a fully-built Ford 9" or GM 12-bolt in just about any RWD car for 25 points. 

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3 minutes ago, Snorman said:

And IMO that is absolute and total bull cookies. 

For 25 points, you shouldn't get the diff, the carrier, the housing, the axles and everything in between. But I'm pretty sure that's what's happening in RWD cars. Claim 25 points for a diff that doesn't fit your make/model, so you get the entire assembly to make it work. Meaning, you can put a fully-built Ford 9" or GM 12-bolt in just about any RWD car for 25 points. 

 

I can totally see how separating "Carrier" and "Differential" in the rules might make things alot more clear. A carrier swap, a ring and pinion swap, and a differential housing swap are three very different things. Older versions of the rules listed what was part of a "differential swap" or a "trans swap", but I think that was several versions ago. 

 

Equally as confusing, lots of people call the differential housing the "axle".

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For an entry-level, low-cost, endurance series, I would suggest that requiring an open diff would be a reasonable approach (are there any cars that don't have an OEM open diff option?)  but good luck getting people to accept that now. 

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1 hour ago, ABR-Glen said:

For an entry-level, low-cost, endurance series, I would suggest that requiring an open diff would be a reasonable approach (are there any cars that don't have an OEM open diff option?)  but good luck getting people to accept that now. 

 

Some cars need a diff, some cars need fuel, some cars need more power, some cars need better brakes etc....

 

I am sure there are people that think we should allow aftermarket camshafts in this series but are against an LSD.

 

Both can be done on budget or $$$$. 

 

I don't see the difference.

 

 

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3 hours ago, ABR-Glen said:

For an entry-level, low-cost, endurance series, I would suggest that requiring an open diff would be a reasonable approach (are there any cars that don't have an OEM open diff option?)  but good luck getting people to accept that now. 

2nd gen Rx7.   Unless 4 bolt with crap brakes and a weird as a bolt pattern.

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11 hours ago, turbogrill said:

 

Some cars need a diff, some cars need fuel, some cars need more power....

...to go faster.

 

There was good close racing in this series back when the cars were slower. All the lobbying that teams have done over the years to get the things they "need" hasn't made the racing better (and certainly more expensive) IMO

 

Anyway, I'm just saying that the LSD is a performance only device and isn't necessary for anyone. Cars would be cheaper, easier to tech, and I suspect it would narrow the gap between the top team and the average team without them. I know it's a dead-end argument, so I'm not going to keep defending it, just planting seeds. 

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16 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

...to go faster.

 

There was good close racing in this series back when the cars were slower. All the lobbying that teams have done over the years to get the things they "need" hasn't made the racing better (and certainly more expensive) IMO

 

Anyway, I'm just saying that the LSD is a performance only device and isn't necessary for anyone. Cars would be cheaper, easier to tech, and I suspect it would narrow the gap between the top team and the average team without them. I know it's a dead-end argument, so I'm not going to keep defending it, just planting seeds. 

 

I see what you are saying, it's interesting. 

 

If it doesn't allow new cars or new technologies the series would just disappear I think. For instance the 2006 Miatas are fun and affordable and I think works well in chump.

 

Hard to make it work for everyone, I don't feel strong about the LSD. However I do feel very strongly about the unjust rule having us pay 5pts for an aluminium coolant tank!!!!!!! GAAAA!!!!

 

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