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2020 Petitions thread


enginerd
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Surprised that there isn't a petitions thread yet.. maybe nobody has finished reading through the whole document yet!! haha.. 

I thought we had a lot last year, but this year there are more!

 

Off the cuff notes:

I'm about 1/3 of the way through. There are a lot of rubbish petitions so far. Won't take long to leave feedback. "No" ... "no"... "this doesn't make any sense".. "no"... etc. 

 

If you have any well thought out responses to specific petitions that you think need to be seen, please respond below, I would love to read your well thought out thoughts.

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I agree that like every year there are some that don't make sense, still need to deep dive into a lot of them.

 

I am 100% with using the swap weight as 10% off the lowest published vehicle weights. 

 

I also am onboard with not allowing dealership prices for 2x.  I do understand that some cars might run into not being able to provide another option, but that could be handled on a car by car basis.

 

In a weird way, I like Troys proposal of allowing fuel on a sliding scale dependent on stock fuel capacity, it helps out the teams with really small capacities add some pwr, but keeps some of the new big tank, successful cars from further increasing their advantage.

 

Limiting the amount of tires that can be changed during a stop is something I need to think more about, my guess this is aimed at some of the big $$ teams and trying to keep this on more of a grassroots level, which I like, but I also do not like limits on things like that this from a what if you blew two tires from an incident, do you now get a penalty to change them or how will it be handled?

 

It seems that the current rulings have been that if you change from stock material, ie: coolers from plastic to aluminum, it costs points. so I doubt any of those regarding radiators will go through.

 

The hub increase from 2.5pts to 10pts. each is another one I support.  Most teams didn't destroy hubs until going to wheels that are waaaayyyy bigger than those parts were intended to support. 

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46 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

I also am onboard with not allowing dealership prices for 2x.  I do understand that some cars might run into not being able to provide another option, but that could be handled on a car by car basis.

 

 

If Autozone doesn’t sell parts for your car, you can still run stock parts.  2x doesn’t mean you can’t buy parts at the dealership, that is always allowed.  What shouldn’t be allowed is using dealership prices as a budget to buy fancy racing parts.

 

 

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Does anyone think the 2X rule is a thing of the past and should just be dropped? My thought is older cars have values that are very low and newer cars have values that are much higher, plus the newer cars are already better so it is making the better cars have that much more room to do things and older cheaper cars are just screwed.

 

Why not just have a fair point value or just say, brake calipers of 4 piston or less are zero points.

 

I think it would keep it fair for all.

 

Thoughts? and please give examples if you like it or do not like and why.

 

Thanks

 

Troy

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22 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Does anyone think the 2X rule is a thing of the past and should just be dropped? My thought is older cars have values that are very low and newer cars have values that are much higher, plus the newer cars are already better so it is making the better cars have that much more room to do things and older cheaper cars are just screwed.

 

Why not just have a fair point value or just say, brake calipers of 4 piston or less are zero points.

 

I think it would keep it fair for all.

 

Thoughts? and please give examples if you like it or do not like and why.

 

Thanks

 

Troy

It's a relic. I would prefer "stock or points". It would hurt our speed for sure, the BMWs benefit a lot from the free springs / dampers.

Edited by enginerd
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49 minutes ago, Huggy said:

 

 

If Autozone doesn’t sell parts for your car, you can still run stock parts.  2x doesn’t mean you can’t buy parts at the dealership, that is always allowed.  What shouldn’t be allowed is using dealership prices as a budget to buy fancy racing parts.

 

 

We are 100% in agreement on this, not sure if I wrote it wrong or not.  There will be cars that cannot get parts from these resellers, which is why I added the case by case point. 

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We've documented 2x parts on our Cobra with BOTH dealer and retail, so we are good either way. 

But I'm not sure I agree with some of the ridiculous things I've seen in the petitions (admittedly, at first glance) with values like $150 for a caliper. That's just nonsense. 

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I want to thank everyone who submitted a petition this year to make this club better and put their ideas on paper.  I've read through them 3 times now and have my comments in to the rest of the board.  It looks like we this year we need to make a decision on which way to go on 2x or breaking it all out with a $ value or just stating what is free and/or what is points under the current 2x rule.  Also please get your comments in to the BOD.  There are some items in my notes where I could go one way or the other, but want to see what the majority of the membership thinks on the petition as well.  We do give some weight in on members comments on these petitions.

 

Thanks again for the ideas!

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I plan to submit a petition next year. Limit petitions to 4 per team (must have run 1 race in the last year).

 

I think this would reduce the sheer number and also increase the quality.

 

Note I was also surprised the only VPI increase petition was two 500 point Honda/Acura with 0 podiums. Clearly they are a problem for the series... I was expecting a Nissan or a Thunderbird. ;) I am not impacted either way; just amused. 

 

Outside the swap weights petition and removing 2x dealership pricing I think the rest are a hard no. Higgins had a few rule book wording tweaks that may be worth further review as well. 

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2 hours ago, Huggy said:

 

 

If Autozone doesn’t sell parts for your car, you can still run stock parts.  2x doesn’t mean you can’t buy parts at the dealership, that is always allowed.  What shouldn’t be allowed is using dealership prices as a budget to buy fancy racing parts.

 

 


I’d be OK getting rid of the 2X rule but only if EVERYTHING that falls under it is now given points for non-OE.  Wheels, struts, brakes, EVERYTHING. No more free parts!  This change would affect my team.

Edited by Ronh911
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1 hour ago, Snorman said:

But I'm not sure I agree with some of the ridiculous things I've seen in the petitions (admittedly, at first glance) with values like $150 for a caliper. That's just nonsense. 

 

Can we agree that the 2X rule is allowing a wide disparity in spending for different cars?  I think a fixed limit would be more equitable.  If $150 is too low, what number is appropriate?

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Removing the 2x rule is too large an impact.  

 

Just enforce as originally written. 2x is for national parts source chains and not dealerships.

 

It is not acceptable to have rule book changes that require everyone rebuild their car every year.

Edited by veris
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6 minutes ago, Grufton said:

 

Can we agree that the 2X rule is allowing a wide disparity in spending for different cars?  I think a fixed limit would be more equitable.  If $150 is too low, what number is appropriate?

That really only gets sketchy when looking at series sponsors....mainly meaning Willwood.  Some cars get their brake setups under 2x and others not.   Also, the old school interpretation of allowing 2x to mean 2x the total replacement cost of the system, not the component needs to be addressed.  No more front brake setups on cars that are way over 2x while running stock rears but using their 2x cost to compile a total system cost.  A caliper is a caliper, a rotor is a rotor, etc..

 

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11 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

No more front brake setups on cars that are way over 2x while running stock rears but using their 2x cost to compile a total system cost.  A caliper is a caliper, a rotor is a rotor, etc..

 

 

Is this a thing?

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27 minutes ago, veris said:

Removing the 2x rule is too large an impact.  

 

Just enforce as originally written. 2x is for national parts source chains and not dealerships.

 

It is not acceptable to have rule book changes that require everyone rebuild their car every year.

Where do all the prices come from then for parts that cannot be purchased at a chain store?

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3 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Does anyone think the 2X rule is a thing of the past and should just be dropped? My thought is older cars have values that are very low and newer cars have values that are much higher, plus the newer cars are already better so it is making the better cars have that much more room to do things and older cheaper cars are just screwed.

 

Why not just have a fair point value or just say, brake calipers of 4 piston or less are zero points.

 

I think it would keep it fair for all.

 

Thoughts? and please give examples if you like it or do not like and why.

 

Thanks

 

Troy

That's exactly what I was thinking when I talked to a few champcar racers last night.

 

The 2x rule is the only real tie we still have to doll hairs.  I even said non stock 4 piston calipers should be x pts for example.

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38 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

That really only gets sketchy when looking at series sponsors....mainly meaning Willwood.  Some cars get their brake setups under 2x and others not.   Also, the old school interpretation of allowing 2x to mean 2x the total replacement cost of the system, not the component needs to be addressed.  No more front brake setups on cars that are way over 2x while running stock rears but using their 2x cost to compile a total system cost.  A caliper is a caliper, a rotor is a rotor, etc..

 

Wait, people are including rear brakes in their front brake setup?  Uh, no.  That shouldn't be happening.

 

Not saying it isn't, I'm saying that shouldn't be legal now!

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16 minutes ago, Ronh911 said:

Where do all the prices come from then for parts that cannot be purchased at a chain store?

 

Then use the stock part or limited to the stock part dealer price no multiplier.  

 

The use case must be VERY small. 

Edited by veris
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1 hour ago, Ronh911 said:


I’d be OK getting rid of the 2X rule but only if EVERYTHING that falls under it is now given points for non-OE.  Wheels, struts, brakes, EVERYTHING. No more free parts!  This change would affect my team.

This would affect almost every team and likely cause a lot of angry emails.

 

and although wheels are written as 2x, see my petition on that subject.  There’s no

such thing as autozone wheels...

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1 hour ago, Grufton said:

 

Can we agree that the 2X rule is allowing a wide disparity in spending for different cars?  I think a fixed limit would be more equitable.  If $150 is too low, what number is appropriate?

We've built and raced 3 cars in the series since 2015. 

These attempts to make huge, disruptive changes to the series after we just brought out a new car aren't going to work for us. 

So no, your assumption that we agree is wrong.

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27 minutes ago, Snorman said:

We've built and raced 3 cars in the series since 2015. 

These attempts to make huge, disruptive changes to the series after we just brought out a new car aren't going to work for us. 

So no, your assumption that we agree is wrong.

What parts do you have that are utilizing the 2x rule?  

 

What I mean is that it might not effect you depending on the end result?  6 piston calipers might be points, but 4 might not be for example.

 

I realize I might be reading too far between the lines...

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