2020 Petitions thread

[Jamie 658]

Just now, jakks said:

Way to hard to monitor how much fuel teams are putting in their jugs. “We put in 15 gallons because we used 3 Hunsakers.” Known fact you can put in almost 6.5 gallons in a Hunsaker with no problems. 

 

Yes I agree. I think that we would have to require teams to mark 5 gallons on their jugs. I mentioned this as a proposal an think this is a flaw in the rule 

[Andrew D Johnson 7,374]

2 minutes ago, Jamie said:

Please poke holes in this idea but try to think of the series as a whole and not just your team when you do. 

I it makes a lot of sense in what it is designed to do, but I will just play a little devils advocate and say: 

The teams that know how to win will continue to do so regardless of this change, and this (or pretty much any rule change) just increases cost / work load / etc. etc. without accomplishing anything. 

[Jamie 658]

1 minute ago, red0 said:

The teams that know how to win will continue to do so regardless of this change, and this (or pretty much any rule change) just increases cost / work load / etc. etc. without accomplishing anything. 

 

I don't really see that as an issue?

 

Edit: I just want it to be closer. I don't like winning by a landslide and I dont like losing by a landslide.. 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Jamie

[mindspin311 824]

Why are we trying to BoP cars like IMSA/FIA? We're really getting ahead of ourselves here.

 

 

Giant changes aren't needed. A few tweaks here and there, and it gets better. Let's start by clarifying, simplifying, and enforcing rules.

[enginerd 6,584]

5 minutes ago, Jamie said:

I think we should be looking at limiting fuel instead of increasing it. I submitted proposal 28 which would limit refueling to15 gallons. I think this is a more passive way to address fueling issues and will also aid in our inability to police engine modifications.

 

When I was writing this I was thinking of fuel as energy. All teams would be limited to a closer amount of energy. So if you want to use that energy on more engine power, more downforce, more friction (wider tires), so be it. You will have the ability to come up with your own recipe of how you use energy. In theory I think this would make racing closer. 

 

Notice how closer is in bold and italics. Teams will still be at a disadvantage who have small fuel tanks, and teams that have ones bigger than 15 gallons will have an advantage as well. But this rule would make the need to buy expensive fuel cell less. Cars that are lighter will also have an increased advantage. But it will greatly reduce the impact that a vehicle's fuel tank size on overall performance 

 

 

So I am going to pick on  @mender for this issue because he has been very vocal on it. Maybe his fuel issue isn't that he need MORE fuel but that other cars need to have LESS fuel. Or that he is making too much power?

 

So here is why I like my rule. 

• Its enforceable
• It will passively restrict power 
• It should reduce cost 
• It in theory would make racing closer 

Why I don't like my rule 

• It will put a increased burden on the champcar staff over the pit wall 
• It will create some drama in the pits with teams accusing each other of over fueling 
• My two main teams will be slower
• Some cars will still be at a disadvantage 
• Some cars will still have an advantage 
• Will increase use of higher energy fuel which would increase cost dramatically 

 

Please poke holes in this idea but try to think of the series as a whole and not just your team when you do. 

I'm glad you brought this petition up... because it is one of the worst ones in the whole lot.

 

Want to eliminate V8s? Done

Big American cars? Absolutely no chance to run a Tbird / camaro / etc. on 15 gallons and have it compete with a miata / CRX on the same amount of fuel.

[Slugworks Paul 1,790]

17 minutes ago, Jamie said:

 

 

Please poke holes in this idea but try to think of the series as a whole and not just your team when you do. 

Not hard, you're clearly biased and would push everyone to as light a chassis as possible. If you want all of us to be racing <2k lb miatas and E30s (the cars you race) then your petition makes sense.

In order for petitions to be accepted you gotta take at least most of your blinders off to the spectrum of cars that are raced in the series.

No bueno.

Edited April 9, 2020 by Slugworks Paul

[Jamie 658]

1 minute ago, enginerd said:

I'm glad you brought this petition up... because it is one of the worst ones in the whole lot.

 

Want to eliminate V8s? Done

Big American cars? Absolutely no chance to run a Tbird / camaro / etc. on 15 gallons and have it compete with a miata / CRX on the same amount of fuel.

 

Yes, heavy fuel inefficient cars will definitely take a hit. Only time I have seen competitive D cars they were eating fuel and had questionable amount of power. 

[Slugworks Paul 1,790]

15 minutes ago, red0 said:

I it makes a lot of sense in what it is designed to do, but I will just play a little devils advocate and say: 

The teams that know how to win will continue to do so regardless of this change, and this (or pretty much any rule change) just increases cost / work load / etc. etc. without accomplishing anything. 

I could build a car to (still) win with that ruleset, but more likely i'd just leave champcar and race with WRL/AER, etc. 

At some point it gets old being forced into building a new car due to rollercoaster rules.

[Jamie 658]

45 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:

Not hard, you're clearly biased and would push everyone to as light a chassis as possible. If you want all of us to be racing <2k lb miatas and E30s (the cars you race) then your petition makes sense.

No bueno.

 

 

I wouldn't say i am clearly bias, I race two Datsun's that take well over 15 gallons of fuel and weight 2300 lbs. We would take a huge hit.

 

I said in here before that my ideal rule set would be a min weight, max fuel, and max tire width. 

 

EDIT: I was thinking about it and I am bias. Probably to myself because I think I am a damn good driver and want a rule set that highlights that better . And I don't often consider that there are probably a lot of teams that want it to be more about their ability to build the perfect car for the ruleset.  

Edited April 9, 2020 by Jamie

[Slugworks Paul 1,790]

Just now, Jamie said:

 

 

I wouldn't say i am clearly bias, I race two Datsun's that take well over 15 gallons of fuel and weight 2300 lbs. We would take a huge hit.

 

I said in here before that my ideal rule set would be a min weight, max fuel, and max tire width. 

That's quite opposed to champcar's goal of inclusivity and would alienate and incapacitate the competitive ability of probably nearly half the cars in the series. That's a pretty gaping hole and more akin to attempting to sabotage the series.

I knew you raced with GWR (E30) and alchemy (miata), 2300 lbs, heavy? funny joke.

[Snorman 2,891]

16 minutes ago, enginerd said:

I'm glad you brought this petition up... because it is one of the worst ones in the whole lot.

 

Want to eliminate V8s? Done

Big American cars? Absolutely no chance to run a Tbird / camaro / etc. on 15 gallons and have it compete with a miata / CRX on the same amount of fuel.

Bingo. I agree 100%. 

• V8's are done.
• Any car over probably 2500# is done. 
• Many V6's are done. 
• The series will be dominated by 140 hp, 2200# cars that can run 2 hours on fuel. 

[cowboys647 182]

1 minute ago, Snorman said:

Bingo. I agree 100%. 

• V8's are done.
• Any car over probably 2500# is done. 
• Many V6's are done. 
• The series will be dominated by 140 hp, 2200# cars that can run 2 hours on fuel. 

Agreed. I run a Miata and this rule would make us MUCH more competitive. I will be voting no. 

[Jamie 658]

39 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:

That's quite opposed to champcar's goal of inclusivity and would alienate and incapacitate the competitive ability of probably nearly half the cars in the series. That's a pretty gaping hole and more akin to attempting to sabotage the series.

I knew you raced with GWR (E30) and alchemy (miata), 2300 lbs, heavy? funny joke.

 

Im a slut, I race with everyone and anyone. Those aren't my main squeezes anymore. I actually think the amount of different cars I have raced in the series gives me a unique perception. To be honest most teams aren't winning because of the rule, most have issues outside of the car. This is why you will be a winning team owner no matter what the rule set is. But I do think (know) the complexity and restrictive feel of our rule set scares teams off. 

 

I think champcar already alienates many vehicles (not on purpose). It's hard to assign the correct VPI to so many vehicles,  come up with far points for to every modification, and then consider  things like fuel tank size variation between cars on top of that. Even if you got it right you then have the task of policing the rules you have created. The complexity of the rules continues to increase. I talk to more and more teams leaving to leagues like Lucky Dog because their rules are so easy and clear. I think with more passive and enforceable rules we could make a muli vehicle series more competitive and less complicated. Limiting fueling is step one in my grand plan that will likely never happen.  

 

Like I said my ideal rule set would be min weight, max fuel, max tire width, 2 hour stints, 5 min stops. The rest is just safety. 

 

2300 is heavy compared to the Miata 

 

 

Edited April 9, 2020 by Jamie
I ate some food and am less hangery

[Snorman 2,891]

19 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:

I could build a car to (still) win with that ruleset, but more likely i'd just leave champcar and race with WRL/AER, etc. 

At some point it gets old being forced into building a new car due to rollercoaster rules.

I will say this...every year the petition process brings out these discussions re: proposals to make sweeping changes to the rules. And every year most of them get shot down for the sake of rules stability. I wouldn't expect to see any of these that propose big changes to fuel rules, tires, fixed-value/2x, etc. be approved. I believe that thankfully the BoD recognizes that "rollercoaster rule" changes aren't good for the series. 

Honestly, proper interpretation, clarification and enforcement of the current BCCR would be fine with me. 

[Snake 1,724]

56 minutes ago, mindspin311 said:

Why are we trying to BoP cars like IMSA/FIA? We're really getting ahead of ourselves here.

 

While I agree with you the series has already decided to go that route by accepting a petition last year for made up weights on certain makes and models so they don't have to follow the written rules.    If any rule needs fixed the series should start there.  

Edited April 9, 2020 by Snake

[Jamie 658]

Just realizing Snake and Snorman aren't the same person. 

[Slugworks Paul 1,790]

1 minute ago, Jamie said:

Just realizing Snake and Snorman aren't the same person. 

Who taught you how to read larger than 2 letter words!?!?

I missed the hangry Jamie, Darn!

[Snorman 2,891]

12 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:

A lot of these petitions scream bitter people who likely were pidgeon holed into a car/build or can't otherwise find a way to be competitive so they target those who can.

I don't understand that mentality. If i'm not winning I tend to internalize that and become better rather than crying foul on other teams.

There are clearly a number of petitions that are intended to limit spending and slow down other cars/teams. 

 

[mender 8,225]

2 hours ago, Jamie said:

It's hard to assign the correct VPI to so many vehicles,  come up with far points for to every modification, and then consider  things like fuel tank size variation between cars on top of that.

It could be much simpler to assign a reasonable VPI to so many vehicles. Champcar has/had the means to simplify that but threw it away. They painted themselves into a corner with the manipulation of the swap calculator weights, then did the only thing you can do in that situation: cut a new door and abandoned the room.

 

Two major components could have been objectively calculated:

1. Power to weight

2. Fuel to weight

 

Then the more subjective traits could be added in using the traditional arguing and lobbying that every series has. A chassis factor taken more or less directly from the autocross people would settle much of the suspension differences (at least what's left to discuss, with all the free points now). By taking two and possibly three large chunks out of the VPI, there would be a lot less wiggle room for biasing a VPI.

 

But of course this would mean that cars get weighed. For some reason (well, we all know the reasons) weight has become the new sacred cow. Not going to happen because apparently the use of that information would upset the BOP. 

 

At one point, I would have said that BOP is a good acronym for BMWs On Podium but I think they're starting to feel the encroachment of the new Golden Standard cars just like the rest of us did a few years ago.

Edited April 10, 2020 by mender

[mender 8,225]

10 hours ago, Jamie said:

So I am going to pick on  @mender for this issue because he has been very vocal on it. Maybe his fuel issue isn't that he need MORE fuel but that other cars need to have LESS fuel. Or that he is making too much power?

The Fiero swap, by the numbers:

- 2550 lbs race weight, full fuel, no driver

-196 rated hp

- 11.9 gallons stock

PWR = 13.01 lbs per hp 

FWR (Fuel to weight ratio) = 214.3 lbs per gallon 

 

E30 swap, by the numbers:

-2300 lbs race weight, full fuel, no driver

-189 rated hp

-16.6 gallons stock

PWR = 12.17 lbs per hp

FWR = 138.6 lbs per gallon

 

The power to weight says I'm not making enough power; the fuel to weight says the E30 has way too much fuel. If you want to talk energy units, if the Fiero is the standard at one unit, the E30 is at 1.55 units.  And for those who say, "just lighten your car", I don't think I can find 942 lbs to remove; the entire drive train is 526 lbs.

 

Any fuel equalization that doesn't use weight as part of the calculation will inevitably end up biased toward either light cars or heavy cars. Since weight is the most recent sacred cow, it ain't gonna happen. OSB.

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by mender

[Snorman 2,891]

1 hour ago, mender said:

At one point, I would have said that BOP is a good acronym for BMWs On Podium but I think they're starting to feel the encroachment of the new Golden Standard cars just like the rest of us did a few years ago.

Yep, and IMO those racing them will do everything they can to prevent that and protect their "turf". 

Just IMO...

[RandomTask 301]

19 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Yep, and IMO those racing them will do everything they can to prevent that and protect their "turf". 

Just IMO...

It's kinda of funny. If you look at the entry lists for races, usually around 50% of the cars are either Miata's or BMW's. 

And last time we threw our C4 on the scales it was 2880# w/o driver. I'd venture to add another 100lb since we had to put the hood back on. We can -barely- make it 2 hours w/ a 22 gallon cell. We're faster on the fast tracks, but tighter tracks we get walked over for being piggy. There are several 3 series that can just out perform us. 

 

 

[Jamie 658]

20 hours ago, enginerd said:

I'm glad you brought this petition up... because it is one of the worst ones in the whole lot.

 

Want to eliminate V8s? Done

Big American cars? Absolutely no chance to run a Tbird / camaro / etc. on 15 gallons and have it compete with a miata / CRX on the same amount of fuel.

 

 

Took a long bike ride and thought about this. Restricting fuel without also adding min weight rules will leave the cars you mentioned to continue to be uncompetitive and maybe worse.  Even with a min weight rule i think some cars would struggle to get to that weight. Maybe this is where classes would come in. Obviously this isn't going to happen because this is too big of a tear up of the rules. But maybe you have a set Fuel Weight Ratio. Something like 140 lbs per gallon and then classes of min weight. A=2500, B=2750, C=3000. Maybe ill make my own series 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Jamie

[Ben 595 112]

14 minutes ago, Jamie said:

 

 

Something like 140 lbs per gallon and then classes of min weight. A=2500, B=2750, C=3000. Maybe ill make my own series 

 

 

 

 

 

Not may Miata's running in the Jamie Racing Club.

 

about 1/3 of our fields are miatas...  so your leaving something major behind.

 

On a positive note my Lincoln fits right into class C...

[Jamie 658]

1 hour ago, Ben 595 said:

 

Not may Miata's running in the Jamie Racing Club.

 

about 1/3 of our fields are miatas...  so your leaving something major behind.

 

On a positive note my Lincoln fits right into class C...

 

I pulled those number out of my ass.. I do think having an achievable min weight in class A would be important. 2000 is too low, only a handful of people can get there. I picked 2500 because it was a pretty number.

 

Maybe its A=2200, B=2400, C=2600,  D=2800. So this would give the following amounts of fuel  A= 16.4, B=17.1, C=18.5 D = 20 

 

I only know the weight of 4 cars I have raced. None of which are American Muscle. Miata 1 = 2070, Miata 2 = ~2200, Datsun = 2300, Subaru = 2600

 

Closest i have been to American Muscle is when I crewed for the Camaro that Bill Riley runs now. If you look in the engine bay of Bill's car you can still see the orange. It had a 22 gallon fuel cell, made 440hp and weight 3020lbs with no driver, fuel, or ballast back then. I bet it's closer to 2800 now? 

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by Jamie
Can't read, can't write, Kent State