2020 Petitions thread

[craig71188 306]

Additional fuel should be an allowable modification - for points.  We've already "given away" 2 gallons for free with a fuel cell.  We've "given away" .5 gallon with a surge tank, We've "given away" some amount to be determined by filler/vent arrangements.  When someone wants to actually use points to increase capacity, some people seem to lose their mind.

 

It should be an allowable modification - for points.  Points you then can't use elsewhere in your point "budget".  Yes, there should be a limit and yes, it should be "pricey" from a points standpoint.  50 pts per gallon, max 4 gallons?  Must be as part of a fuel cell addition?   I don't see where a rule like this destroys the series, but it does allow alternate build strategies and may bring in more cars that are competitive (or maybe that's the problem?).   

[Snorman 2,891]

10 minutes ago, Jamie said:

Maybe its A=2200, B=2400, C=2600,  D=2800. So this would give the following amounts of fuel  A= 16.4, B=17.1, C=18.5 D = 20 

 

I only know the weight of 4 cars I have raced. None of which are American Muscle. Miata 1 = 2070, Miata 2 = ~2200, Datsun = 2300, Subaru = 2600

Isn't this completely 100% different than the petition you submitted limiting teams to 15-gallons at fuel stops? 

[Cam Benty 825]

Fuel capacity per liter of engine displacement;
 

Miata NC 1.8: 7.2 liter per gallon

E30 2.5: 7.8 gallons per liter

Sc300 3.0:  6.6 gallons per liter

944 Porsche: 8.4 gallons per liter

Mazda RX8: 13 gallons per liter.

 

This is a good place to start.  Take the average of these cars. Figure something out.

 

 

 

[Jamie 658]

6 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Isn't this completely 100% different than the petition you submitted limiting teams to 15-gallons at fuel stops? 

 

Fo sho. Ideas evolve 

[mender 8,225]

1 hour ago, Cam Benty said:

Fuel capacity per liter of engine displacement;
 

Miata NC 1.8: 7.2 liter per gallon

E30 2.5: 7.8 gallons per liter

Sc300 3.0:  6.6 gallons per liter

944 Porsche: 8.4 gallons per liter

Mazda RX8: 13 gallons per liter.

 

This is a good place to start.  Take the average of these cars. Figure something out.

 

 

 

Bad place to start if V8s are racing in the series.

 

Any formula based only on engine displacement will be biased because of the wide disparity in specific output per litre of displacement. Let's say the average from your list is 7.0 gallons per litre of engine displacement.

 

Ford 5.0 = 225 hp = 45 hp/litre but 35 gallons. Each gallon only has to support 6.4 hp.

 

Honda VTEC 1.8 = 195 hp = 108 hp/litre and 12.6 gallons. Each gallon has to support 15.5 hp.

[mender 8,225]

1 hour ago, craig71188 said:

Additional fuel should be an allowable modification - for points.  We've already "given away" 2 gallons for free with a fuel cell.  We've "given away" .5 gallon with a surge tank, We've "given away" some amount to be determined by filler/vent arrangements.  When someone wants to actually use points to increase capacity, some people seem to lose their mind.

 

It should be an allowable modification - for points.  Points you then can't use elsewhere in your point "budget".  Yes, there should be a limit and yes, it should be "pricey" from a points standpoint.  50 pts per gallon, max 4 gallons?  Must be as part of a fuel cell addition?   I don't see where a rule like this destroys the series, but it does allow alternate build strategies and may bring in more cars that are competitive (or maybe that's the problem?).   

The cost of fuel for points should be in line with other mods in terms of potential gains per point. 

 

If a mod has the potential to reduce the lap time by one second on a 2 minute lap, that would be about 2 laps over an 8 hour race (not exact). If that mod costs 40 points that works out to about 20 points per lap.

 

If 2 gallons gets a car to a full stint, that's about 2.5 laps difference on the same track. Proportionally that mod should be worth 50 points, or 25 points per gallon.

[Cam Benty 825]

 

10 minutes ago, mender said:

Bad place to start if V8s are racing in the series.

 

Any formula based only on engine displacement will be biased because of the wide disparity in specific output per litre of displacement. Let's say the average from your list is 7.0 gallons per litre of engine displacement.

 

Ford 5.0 = 225 hp = 45 hp/litre but 35 gallons. Each gallon only has to support 6.4 hp.

 

Honda VTEC 1.8 = 195 hp = 108 hp/litre and 12.6 gallons. Each gallon has to support 15.5 hp.

 

[cowboys647 182]

2 minutes ago, mender said:

The cost of fuel for points should be in line with other mods in terms of potential gains per point. 

 

If a mod has the potential to reduce the lap time by one second on a 2 minute lap, that would be about 2 laps over an 8 hour race (not exact). If that mod costs 40 points that works out to about 20 points per lap.

 

If 2 gallons gets a car to a full stint, that's about 2.5 laps difference on the same track. Proportionally that mod should be worth 50 points, or 25 points per gallon.

The problem here is that the fixed point value list looks like values were just pulled out of a hat. I would love a good strong look to correct a lot of these values. 

Hubs: 2.5pts

Wing: 10pts
Sway Bar: 20pts

Camshaft: 50pts

 

[Snorman 2,891]

3 minutes ago, cowboys647 said:

The problem here is that the fixed point value list looks like values were just pulled out of a hat. I would love a good strong look to correct a lot of these values. 

Hubs: 2.5pts

Wing: 10pts
Sway Bar: 20pts

Camshaft: 50pts

 

Hood 25pts

 

[Cam Benty 825]

Axle or spindle going from 4 lug to 5 lug: 25 points

 

1 hour ago, cowboys647 said:

The problem here is that the fixed point value list looks like values were just pulled out of a hat. I would love a good strong look to correct a lot of these values. 

Hubs: 2.5pts

Wing: 10pts
Sway Bar: 20pts

Camshaft: 50pts

 

 

1 hour ago, Snorman said:

Hood 25pts

 

 

[Jamie 658]

1 hour ago, Cam Benty said:

Axle or spindle going from 4 lug to 5 lug: 25 points

Hubs: 2.5pts

Wing: 10pts
Sway Bar: 20pts

Camshaft: 50pts

Hood 25pts

 

 

Here in Jamie's Imagery Race League these are all free!  

Edited April 10, 2020 by Jamie

[mender 8,225]

3 hours ago, cowboys647 said:

The problem here is that the fixed point value list looks like values were just pulled out of a hat. I would love a good strong look to correct a lot of these values. 

Hubs: 2.5pts

Wing: 10pts
Sway Bar: 20pts

Camshaft: 50pts

And the amount that each mod helps a particular car will depend on the car. Hard to nail down a fair value for everyone, but the points should be high enough on each item that decisions need to be made.

 

Ideally, if a mod on a 500 point car increases its speed enough to drop one second on the track, it should be 20 points. That would make a 520 point car and a 500 point car equally likely to win an 8 hour race. Maybe that would be a reasonable starting point: use a Golden Standard (500 point) car and evaluate each of the fixed point value list items to see if the assigned points have any relation to reality.

 

Would a hood make an E46 a second faster per lap? Would a cam make a Mustang two seconds a lap faster?  And so on. Rumours of extensive scenarios on the swap calculator are being bandied about, why not do the same with the fixed value list to see if it makes sense? 

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by mender

[Team Infiniti 15,387]

So, a set of re71r tires are worth 2 sec a lap, what should they be valued at?

Edited April 11, 2020 by Team Infiniti

[Snake 1,724]

3 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

So, a set of re71r tires are worth 2 sec a lap, what should be valued at?

 

Zero. 

[wvumtnbkr 7,318]

40 minutes ago, Snake said:

 

Zero. 

I disagree. 

 

My opinion is that re71r are a perfect example of just throwing money at the car to gain an advantage.

[JDChristianson 4,595]

4 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

So, a set of re71r tires are worth 2 sec a lap, what should be valued at?

The same amount of points a team gets for not charging a pro  for seat time in return for "coaching" and driving 3 seconds a lap faster than the entire field.  ???   There's a lot of things people are willing to do to get a bunch of bolts welded together on a brake rotor

 

[Snake 1,724]

2 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I disagree. 

 

My opinion is that re71r are a perfect example of just throwing money at the car to gain an advantage.

 

 Everyone wants to claim they are being outspent.   Fact is, people are being out built and out driven but... nobody wants to admit that.   Blame the $$$.    

Edited April 11, 2020 by Snake

[wvumtnbkr 7,318]

If people can build and drive a car sooo AWESOMELY, they dont need to spend the money on tires that are more expensive and wear out quickly, right?

 

I am just not in favor of items that just by spending money makes the car seconds of a lap faster.

 

P.s. I never claimed I was being outspent.

Edited April 11, 2020 by wvumtnbkr

[ablesnead 79]

These arguments and responses for the most part only effect the pointy end of the field , the sample is by definition small...don't burden the mass of us with regulation and complication that with some future hoped for ability could prove advantageous ..Snake is right ,and nothing proposed here will ever alter anything but the starting hoops that a new team must consider..

[JDChristianson 4,595]

37 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I am just not in favor of items that just by spending money makes the car seconds of a lap faster

like engine swaps?   one could just send money and get that done.

 

like bigger wheels that you unbox and mount bigger tires on?   245 vs what ever works on 6.5 inch wide original wheels are mucho faster  and all it took was money

 

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by JDChristianson

[Snorman 2,891]

So next year 4 different tires on the "banned" list or assessed points.

In 2022 it's 8 different tires. Then 10. Then 12. 

And who makes the subjective decision that a specific tire is "better" or "faster" or more durable? And on what car? In what conditions? Is the series going to conduct annual tire tests with the same car, same driver, same track and those below a certain metric are banned? When a manufacturer makes a tire that is as fast as a the current RE71R, but wears like an RS4 and costs less than a Falken...will it be banned? Or will it be perfectly fine because the people complaining about $$$ are good with it?

 

IMO people who want to start with these restrictions are just looking to slow down everybody else. And when tires don't do enough, what's next?

Edited April 11, 2020 by Snorman

[Cam Benty 825]

1 hour ago, JDChristianson said:

like engine swaps?   one could just send money and get that done.

 

like bigger wheels that you unbox and mount bigger tires on?   245 vs what ever works on 6.5 inch wide original wheels are mucho faster  and all it took was money

 

 

 It depends on who is doing the swap, bigger tires, flavor of tires,, platform, platform interchangeability, etc. It is the same people making the same posts. You are entitled to submit a petition as long as it does not affect their make or help those in need. 
 

[wvumtnbkr 7,318]

3 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

like engine swaps?   one could just send money and get that done.

 

like bigger wheels that you unbox and mount bigger tires on?   245 vs what ever works on 6.5 inch wide original wheels are mucho faster  and all it took was money

 

 

Uh, you pay points for engine swaps.  Kinda the point.

 

As for wider tires, they dont typically change laptimes too much.  They just wear considerably longer.

 

Thanks for playing!

[wvumtnbkr 7,318]

I am all for keeping tires open to whatever people choose.  

 

I would like to see a restriction on the number of tires over the wall in a pit stop.  That helps squash "the flavor of the month" while making teams pay some type of penalty if they want to run a tire that wears out at the cost of grip.

 

Changing 2 tires should still be possible in a normal pit stop.  4 would be pushing it

 

Obviously there would need to be exceptions for incidents on track or weather. 

[Snake 1,724]

4 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

If people can build and drive a car sooo AWESOMELY, they dont need to spend the money on tires that are more expensive and wear out quickly, right?

 

 

 

No, you need to so you can try and keep up with the awesome teams that arent even running those tires.