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When does "no passing" begin in a local yellow.


skierman64
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It's not address in the CC rulebook.  NASA's rules don't specify.  SCCA and WRL (edit: and BMWCCA) says it starts at the flagger stand showing the yellow.  I didn't look at AER (see below) 

 

For a local yellow, when does no passing begin; Is it when the flag is visible to the driver or at the flag stand displaying the flag?

 

If it's when it's visible, does it matter if the flag stand vision is being blocked by another car?

 

Update:  AER wording. no passing from the moment the driver is able to see a yellow flag ahead (seems very subjective to me)

Edited by skierman64
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So this is from BMWCCA racing rules (which is typical of most organizations):

Absolutely NO PASSING is permitted from a point tangential to the first station displaying the yellow flag, until completely past the incident(s) and until such a point as the racer can visually confirm that the next manned flag station is in a green flag (that is, no flag) condition.  So you can race to the flag.

 

However- I thought the Champcar rule was line of sight- meaning that no passing starts before the flag station displaying the yellow flag.  This difference in the rules is why many flaggers don't call in the PUY, because they are used to racing to the yellow flag.  The flagger is looking past their station and not before their station.

But I didn't find this in the current rule set.

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Agree with above. As soon as you see a yellow you are not allowed to pass, even if it is before the station. The yellow is valid until you pass the incident or until you see the next station.

 

 

(I think the other way make more sense, but that requires a little more from the the flaggers. Since the flagger required to put out the flag might not see the incident).

 

 

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26 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Agree with above. As soon as you see a yellow you are not allowed to pass, even if it is before the station. The yellow is valid until you pass the incident or until you see the next station.

 

 

(I think the other way make more sense, but that requires a little more from the the flaggers. Since the flagger required to put out the flag might not see the incident).

 

 

 

Just for the sake of the discussion, only the driver knows when he sees a yellow.  

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And for the question of over taking, in the situation where you are coming up to pass either in a corner or straight but at the point the yellow becomes visible, you cannot slow quickly enough to keep from passing said car.  Is it ok to slow and let that car back past or is it just a does not matter, you pay the penalty situation?  I ask because I have seen plenty of these situations from champ car in car cams where drivers were at the bumper in an overtake and speed differential seems to make it impossible to not complete the pass maybe partially because the car being passed also sees the yellow and slows at the same time.  I know this has been digested before, but what is the current view of this situation?

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@67Mustang,

 

Being in a slow car… I get to see this a lot.

 

I am not about to pass someone back who passed me under yellow; it’s asking for a penalty.  Just because station ‘A’ sees the original PUY does not mean they call it in.  So when & if I were to pass someone back at after turn “C” what are the odds that a controlled field Pass under yellow is going to be noticed and then called in? 

 

I would be mad at any of my drivers if they passed someone back under yellow and received a penalty.  Coming in and talking to the stewards is a penalty regardless if you have to spend 5 min parked talking about it.

 

Someone doing something dumb does not justify me matching their stupidity.

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11 minutes ago, 67Mustang said:

And for the question of over taking, in the situation where you are coming up to pass either in a corner or straight but at the point the yellow becomes visible, you cannot slow quickly enough to keep from passing said car.  Is it ok to slow and let that car back past or is it just a does not matter, you pay the penalty situation?  I ask because I have seen plenty of these situations from champ car in car cams where drivers were at the bumper in an overtake and speed differential seems to make it impossible to not complete the pass maybe partially because the car being passed also sees the yellow and slows at the same time.  I know this has been digested before, but what is the current view of this situation?

If you see a yellow as you are passing or mid-pass it is very prudent to seriously check up. If you can't drop in behind the car you were attempting to pass, you should make it very clear that you are not continuing to pass or complete a pass. As the car being overtaken, I would NOT pass back nor would I allow that car to let me pass them. Many times a car will PUY, realize it, check up, then try to goad the car they just passed into taking back that position on the track. That's dumb. Because the car that retakes that position it at risk for getting nailed for a PUY. 

The few seconds you lose on track trying to ensure you are not PUY is far less than 3 minutes in the penalty box on top of losing time at pit in/pit out

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14 minutes ago, 67Mustang said:

And for the question of over taking, in the situation where you are coming up to pass either in a corner or straight but at the point the yellow becomes visible, you cannot slow quickly enough to keep from passing said car.  Is it ok to slow and let that car back past or is it just a does not matter, you pay the penalty situation?  I ask because I have seen plenty of these situations from champ car in car cams where drivers were at the bumper in an overtake and speed differential seems to make it impossible to not complete the pass maybe partially because the car being passed also sees the yellow and slows at the same time.  I know this has been digested before, but what is the current view of this situation?

 

 

I had a couple of those instances in the Road Atlanta race after the red flag when conditions were still messy off track but just wet on track. Caused lots of local yellows with cars running off. Several passes were abandoned after already getting at least a half car in front just to be sure. The flag stand at the bridge is a known problem area as it's hard to see until you are right on top of it. We were probably one of the few cars that didn't have any PUY penalties that race. It seemed like that was affecting a lot of other teams and I can honestly say it was difficult to not make a mistake like that. 

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2 hours ago, chip said:

I wish we could just race to the flag as this is what the flaggers understand in the first place.  The incident is always past the flag station.

Depending on where the disable car is, this could be very dangerous. Remember, yellows are not some inconvenience to deal with, they are a warning of a hazardous situation. The way I always thought of it (only racing in ChampCar) is if the driver can reasonably see the flag, then there is no passing. 

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I thought the official ruling was when you are under the control of that corner station.  Generally speaking I would say that would be within sight of the corner station, unless there's another non yellow station between that one and the yellow station. 

 

In practice it will be whatever the corner workers at that particular track were told and what they actually do. 

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1 hour ago, enginerd said:

Depending on where the disable car is, this could be very dangerous. Remember, yellows are not some inconvenience to deal with, they are a warning of a hazardous situation. The way I always thought of it (only racing in ChampCar) is if the driver can reasonably see the flag, then there is no passing. 

 

Reasonably see the flag is very subjective (and the flagger and driver may easily see it differently) whereas pass complete before the flag station is much less subjective.  

 

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1 hour ago, skierman64 said:

 

Reasonably see the flag is very subjective (and the flagger and driver may easily see it differently) whereas pass complete before the flag station is much less subjective.  

 

 

I guess the problem is if the incident is just after the flag station. Then everyone would go balls up to the flag station and then slam the brakes. The rescue vehicle might be parked blindly or something.

 

At least this way things get slowed down (and it's still not followed). 

 

Edited by turbogrill
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1 hour ago, turbogrill said:

 

I guess the problem is if the incident is just after the flag station. Then everyone would go balls up to the flag station and then slam the brakes. The rescue vehicle might be parked blindly or something.

 

At least this way things get slowed down (and it's still not followed). 

 

Then it would be a waving yellow most likely, and with rescue would probably be FCY.

 

Edited by chip
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11 minutes ago, chip said:

Then it would be a waving yellow most likely, and with rescue would probably be FCY.

 

 

There are also instances where you could have a previous corner station waving yellow for an incident past the next corner station. They would be "covering" the station where the incident actually is to prevent racing up to that station. 

Edited by XelderX
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1 hour ago, chip said:

Then it would be a waving yellow most likely, and with rescue would probably be FCY.

 

Wait a sec, different rules for waving yellow vs. standing yellow? Are you saying that if it’s a waving yellow you slow down at some point sooner, but a yellow that isn’t waving you race to the flag station?

 

At the tracks I have recently raced at, (Nelson, Gingerman, Road America) there are MANY rescues / tows with local yellows, not full course.

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8 hours ago, XelderX said:

 

There are also instances where you could have a previous corner station waving yellow for an incident past the next corner station. They would be "covering" the station where the incident actually is to prevent racing up to that station. 

Then that's good.

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7 hours ago, enginerd said:

Wait a sec, different rules for waving yellow vs. standing yellow? Are you saying that if it’s a waving yellow you slow down at some point sooner, but a yellow that isn’t waving you race to the flag station?

 

At the tracks I have recently raced at, (Nelson, Gingerman, Road America) there are MANY rescues / tows with local yellows, not full course.

They mean different things for sure, but it's still all about track awareness.

Still most organizations use race to the flag, this isn't something new.  What champcar does is different and I would say most corner works aren't watching the cars coming towards their station and have their eyes down track on the incident.

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I think they just take the safest approach with the least amount of work for the flaggers.

I don't think the flag workers at my local track would be able to do what you describe, would be to risky.

 

I agree that it opens up for some issues and sometimes you do pass under yellow because you just passed someone when the tower got visible. 

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Agreed that this is probably a little safer using the champcar approach, it's just different than most organizations- that's all I'm saying.  Plus it's not currently in the rules (at least I can't find it).  That being said- it is a different approach for most corner workers and they probably don't see many PUY infractions because they are watching the portion of track that is past their station and not before it.

That's good to tell your guys not to pass under yellow because it's against the rules  😄

Edited by chip
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6 hours ago, chip said:

Agreed that this is probably a little safer using the champcar approach, it's just different than most organizations- that's all I'm saying.  Plus it's not currently in the rules (at least I can't find it).  That being said- it is a different approach for most corner workers and they probably don't see many PUY infractions because they are watching the portion of track that is past their station and not before it.

That's good to tell your guys not to pass under yellow because it's against the rules  😄

Any good corner marshal is not looking at the incident (which isn't  always in line of sight) Unless it is right in front of them. 

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On 7/20/2020 at 3:10 PM, skierman64 said:

 

Just for the sake of the discussion, only the driver knows when he sees a yellow.  

Unless he has a spotter... If we aren't driving we are spotting. We just radio "yellow turn 2" or "oil down on the straight stay to the right"... 

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2 hours ago, TiredBirds said:

Unless he has a spotter... If we aren't driving we are spotting. We just radio "yellow turn 2" or "oil down on the straight stay to the right"... 

 

How do you get a spotter to the carousel area at Nelson Ledges? 

 

Do you deploy out your entire team to different areas of the track with radios?  

 

Edited by skierman64
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