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51 minutes ago, red0 said:

Tyler has been working hard on a strong schedule for the Midwest for next year. 

Strong schedule eh?? Might have to increase the budget next year to do all of these races...

Great hypothetical schedule: 

Road America - April

Autobahn - June

Gingerman - August

Indy - September

Road America - October

Edited by enginerd
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1 hour ago, enginerd said:

Strong schedule eh?? Might have to increase the budget next year to do all of these races...

Great hypothetical schedule: 

Road America - April

Autobahn - June

Gingerman - August

Indy - September

Road America - October

 

You know the Midwest isn't centered around Chicago, right?  Haha 🙂  I hate the term "Midwest".  It encompasses way too much of the country.  Growing up west of the Mississippi, none of those tracks come to mind when I think "Midwest", even though they absolutely are.  Sure would be nice to have a race somewhere between the Mississippi and Continental Divide that isn't all the way down in Houston.

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5 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said:


That's weird, because I've talked to a lot also (lived out there for a while) and rules were often brought up.

"nobody agrees with every rule" is a strawman argument I didn't make. Everyone has rules they disagree with, but at some point the unhappiness reaches a degree to which you won't even participate in the series.

I just think it's flawed to continue pointing to only east coast races as a ubiquitous sign of success. It is certainly good but we're losing ground in the west/central and if you have some other silver bullet answer, i'd love to hear it! I don't believe it is simple but I think rules are a part of it.

Central :  Indy, Harris Hill, Road America ,Barber, Gingerman all seem to be doing well.   I do believe that Laguna Seca has sold out a few times also.

The hundreds of racers I spoke with were within the last 8 months all from the west coast and not one had a concern  with the rule  package of ChampCar.  New teams have recently entered the events out there and indicated they  will return once racing resumes.   Perhaps the people you talked to can fill you in.   If they keep mentioning rules then they really don't know either. 

There are many people working diligently to increase the car count in the west.  When can we expect an entry from you there?

Edited by DEE DEE
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WOW, I can not believe I missed all 17 pages of this until now to see the back and forth.

 

Here a few thoughts and observations.

 

-37% of the teams would not be legal unless they reduce hp or add weight. That is not good as it would make a portion of those teams go away. I know I would go away with my car and race somewhere else.

-The same teams that win now will win later as usual. They prep their cars better, prepare better, strategize better, have experience, exploit the rules better, prerace iracing better, ect. Winning teams do not win by luck and it takes a lot of effort and an insane amount of time. The winning teams will put that effort forth and the same results will happen, that is if they choose to build a new car to meet the regulations, if not then maybe other teams will start to win with a smaller less strong field. Looking at the rules here it was not hard to optimize what the ideal car would be and how fast it could go. The issue there is that the organization will not draw in enough money to pay for the tracks and go out of business. 

-This sure looks like WRL with a different flavor to me, one class.

-We will have a field of 2800-3200lb cars. HP wins.

-The hp will be manipulated really easy. Shoot, some ecu's have wifi capabilities and when a car is driving down to the pits they can connect and put in a new ecu map without anyone knowing in like 5 seconds. You may or may not hear the engine note blip or change when it happens. Plus with speed sensors on different wheels, switches and a number of different strategies it would be easy to change.

 

Has anyone raced NASA ST classes? I have and used Bio in it with hoosiers. I was about 900-1000lbs lighter than the rest of the field. I was down about 80-110ph though to them, but we all had the same pwr to weight.  I could out brake and out corner, a little bit, the rest of the cars unless the driver was much better, which some were. The higher hp cars will win every time, simple as that. You can argue it would not happen, but I have seen it. They just pull away far to much on the straights and they will pass cars as will and have a huge advantage. The fuel limit will allow it and cause teams to have the same strategy.

 

I applaud Rich the effort to try a new idea though and this seems like it should be a different series than what we have. Maybe we can call it RNES (Rich's New Endurance Series).  I like the idea of battling a lot of different cars and strategies. It sure has gotten much harder now with new higher hp cars that can go two hours, but that is part of the challenge. That is why I like Champcar so much as it is with some tweaks and adjustments. An entire new power to weight ruleset is there now with WRL. I have raced with them and they have issues with rules, which I am sure would come out with a new ruleset. I do not think there is a perfect ruleset out there, but what we have is pretty good. I think we just need to calm down the 8 million tech bulletins that keep on adjusting points, which seems like it is on a weekly basis, and who the heck can follow a secret convoluted separate ruleset.

 

 

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On 8/19/2020 at 8:23 PM, Burningham said:


I really don’t know how to assign a score. Sometimes the board and management take our advice straight up, sometimes a variation, sometimes ignored. I think our opinion is valued so I think thats all we can ask for.  We (Tac) don’t even agree all the time, thats just the nature of the beast. 

Being on the Board, I can tell you we value the TAC's opinion or we wouldn't ask at all.  Sometimes we don't accept their recommendations due to a couple of reasons: 

1) It's extremely difficult to enforce at post race tech, maybe impossible

2) We try to treat parts in similar a manner.  For example, tires are open as long as TW is high enough, they are a wear item.  Pads are open, wear item.  So we decided rotors should be for similar reasons.  

3) Sometimes recommendations sound good on paper, but would leave a large group of racer disenfranchised.  We have to take that into account when producing new rules.  

4) Sometimes the majority of the Board simply disagrees with the recommendation.  

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On 8/21/2020 at 9:30 AM, riche30 said:


Well, for what its worth, for three years I've seen our current board (Bruce, Jer, Tyler, Doc and myself) as team owners vote over and over again to penalize ourselves, cost ourselves more money, and do everything we could to work for the betterment of our series and not ourselves.  Quite frankly, I didn't care for the comment and felt it was in poor taste.

This is true.  I lost a bunch of points when the Miatas were all put on the top line for NAs.  I spent more money when the header rule was changed.  But those were good rules for the series and I supported them.  I know everyone else has faced the same issue on the Board.  

 

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22 minutes ago, Jer said:

2) We try to treat parts in similar a manner.  For example, tires are open as long as TW is high enough, they are a wear item.  Pads are open, wear item.  So we decided rotors should be for similar reasons.  

My engines are wear items... open, right?

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On 8/26/2020 at 1:06 PM, riche30 said:


Just pull the E30s out and and them to D, right?  LOL

Are we moving all the 2.5s because they are stroked to 3?  LOL  J/K

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2 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Has anyone raced NASA ST classes? I have and used Bio in it with hoosiers. I was about 900-1000lbs lighter than the rest of the field. I was down about 80-110ph though to them, but we all had the same pwr to weight.  I could out brake and out corner, a little bit, the rest of the cars unless the driver was much better, which some were. The higher hp cars will win every time, simple as that. You can argue it would not happen, but I have seen it. They just pull away far to much on the straights and they will pass cars as will and have a huge advantage. The fuel limit will allow it and cause teams to have the same strategy.

This is interesting to me, I would have thought the opposite with fixed PWR. In any case, you and I are saying the same thing...one specific make/model/type of platform will rise to dominance. 

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On 8/27/2020 at 12:13 PM, enginerd said:

Strong schedule eh?? Might have to increase the budget next year to do all of these races...

Great hypothetical schedule: 

Road America - April

Autobahn - June

Gingerman - August

Indy - September

Road America - October

 

Don't forget mid - O 

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On 8/27/2020 at 3:34 PM, DEE DEE said:

Central :  Indy, Harris Hill, Road America ,Barber, Gingerman all seem to be doing well.   I do believe that Laguna Seca has sold out a few times also.

The hundreds of racers I spoke with were within the last 8 months all from the west coast and not one had a concern  with the rule  package of ChampCar.  New teams have recently entered the events out there and indicated they  will return once racing resumes.   Perhaps the people you talked to can fill you in.   If they keep mentioning rules then they really don't know either. 

There are many people working diligently to increase the car count in the west.  When can we expect an entry from you there?


You're right, potential customers on the west coast "really don't know either". (whatever that means)

When can you expect an entry from me? Probably if/when I move back to the SW/west coast. I live the same distance from there as you do (give or take a few miles), when's the last time you towed your car out there to race? Sadly I don't get enough days off to spend a week+ towing (I'd be doing it by myself) - I could do about 1.5 races per year if that was the case.

Worth pointing out as well - save for Harris Hill (which is in the south) all the tracks you list are WELL east of the mississippi, which cuts out a lot of the 'midwest' IMO. I realize there are fewer tracks in  that part of the country, but they have suffered and fallen off the map, sadly including my home track BIR.

 

Edited by Slugworks Paul
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32 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:

sadly including my home track BIR.

 

That one really hurts....one of our teams favorite tracks, but I get it.  Why not Hallet, High Plains, or Heartland Park....Heck, now that they made the roval course longer at Gateway I'd gladly go back to that swamp, if it isn't in June, July, or August...  We are 1.25hrs away from Iowa Speedway too, not that we would be terribly excited to run it, but it is another past track.

 

I just hope Tyler can secure Autobahn for next year, it is a really fun track and a lot of options for lodging and food nearby.

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Only the event directors and Mike Chisek talk to the tracks and work on the schedule for next year. So... knowing that, if you want to go to a track, please contact an event director or info@champcar.org.
 

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On 8/29/2020 at 4:06 PM, Bill Strong said:

Only the event directors and Mike Chisek talk to the tracks and work on the schedule for next year. So... knowing that, if you want to go to a track, please contact an event director or info@champcar.org.
 

We would, but I think we all know there's a reason why they used to be on the schedule and no longer are.

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On 8/28/2020 at 4:24 PM, Slugworks Paul said:


You're right, potential customers on the west coast "really don't know either". (whatever that means)

When can you expect an entry from me? Probably if/when I move back to the SW/west coast. I live the same distance from there as you do (give or take a few miles), when's the last time you towed your car out there to race? Sadly I don't get enough days off to spend a week+ towing (I'd be doing it by myself) - I could do about 1.5 races per year if that was the case.

Worth pointing out as well - save for Harris Hill (which is in the south) all the tracks you list are WELL east of the mississippi, which cuts out a lot of the 'midwest' IMO. I realize there are fewer tracks in  that part of the country, but they have suffered and fallen off the map, sadly including my home track BIR.

 

 

I can't like this post enough. Road America is my closest Champcar event at only a 18 hr one way tow. 

 

Lack of central / midwest tracks is one of the reasons I am so dead against the current 5 race rule. It is extraordinary onerous on anyone not on the east coast. When you are towing 1000+ miles [each way] it isn't just a few weekends you are giving up. 

 

With Road America being the championship in 2021 I was planning on making 5+ races. Unfortunately with race cancellations and border issues I'll be at 0. 

 

Atleast one race a year should be in BIR (Minnesota) and / or HighPlains (Colorodo).  Both are great tracks. Running two configurations at BIR is great fun. Haven't been to Utah, but it was on my list for this year; I hear it is a great track too. You can't grow the series in these areas without races. 2020 has been a terrible year for racing but it has been years since we have options. 

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Because of the 'rona, and the resulting lack of money for teams to spend, attendance is down all over. We are down to 71 for Indy, which means we likely won't be going back.  I live in Denver, and more than anyone else in the country want a race there (High Plains).  I have a lot of friends who feel that way about Brainerd.  But for 2021 we simply cannot afford to take on known money losers.  In the past success at places like Daytona, WGI, Road Atlanta etc would help cover losses out west, including places like Thunderhill and Utah.  For 2021, given the uncertainty of the economy as a result of COVID 19, we simply will not schedule races we KNOW will lose money.  We would like to go back to those tracks but we don't want to risk the organization as a whole.  So we will be extra careful next year and hope we can take on more seed races in 2022.  

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5 minutes ago, Jer said:

Because of the 'rona, and the resulting lack of money for teams to spend, attendance is down all over. We are down to 71 for Indy, which means we likely won't be going back.  I live in Denver, and more than anyone else in the country want a race there (High Plains).  I have a lot of friends who feel that way about Brainerd.  But for 2021 we simply cannot afford to take on known money losers.  In the past success at places like Daytona, WGI, Road Atlanta etc would help cover losses out west, including places like Thunderhill and Utah.  For 2021, given the uncertainty of the economy as a result of COVID 19, we simply will not schedule races we KNOW will lose money.  We would like to go back to those tracks but we don't want to risk the organization as a whole.  So we will be extra careful next year and hope we can take on more seed races in 2022.  

What are you guys thinking about COTA for 2021? 

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59 minutes ago, Jer said:

Because of the 'rona, and the resulting lack of money for teams to spend, attendance is down all over. We are down to 71 for Indy, which means we likely won't be going back.  I live in Denver, and more than anyone else in the country want a race there (High Plains).  I have a lot of friends who feel that way about Brainerd.  But for 2021 we simply cannot afford to take on known money losers.  In the past success at places like Daytona, WGI, Road Atlanta etc would help cover losses out west, including places like Thunderhill and Utah.  For 2021, given the uncertainty of the economy as a result of COVID 19, we simply will not schedule races we KNOW will lose money.  We would like to go back to those tracks but we don't want to risk the organization as a whole.  So we will be extra careful next year and hope we can take on more seed races in 2022.  

As a business owner that's fair, I am doing the same.

 

That said Champcar really needs to adjust the 5 race event requirement moving forward if it isn't going to run races throught then US. Failure will drive folks like me to other series which a) run in the area b) allow us to compete in a championship race.

 

The original petition of 3 events was a more reasonable requirement given the logistics in 2/3s of the US and Canada.

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17 hours ago, veris said:

As a business owner that's fair, I am doing the same.

 

That said Champcar really needs to adjust the 5 race event requirement moving forward if it isn't going to run races throught then US. Failure will drive folks like me to other series which a) run in the area b) allow us to compete in a championship race.

 

The original petition of 3 events was a more reasonable requirement given the logistics in 2/3s of the US and Canada.

I will bring it up at the next Board meeting.  Given that we will likely scale back the schedule a bit, it makes sense to scale back the requirements for the National Championship qualifying.  

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1 hour ago, Jer said:

scale back the requirements for the National Championship qualifying.  

My feelings about the "normal" bar being a bit high affect mindset to not even try, I don't mean try for position @ any random event, I mean try to attend a extra race (championship) or alter our normally attended race schedule.

 

Not complaining as the decision has been made, just giving insight to mindset.     i.e. Racing is for the rich, we are happy to attend and accel at our comfort level.

Edited by Team Infiniti
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14 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

My feelings about the "normal" bar being a bit high affect mindset to not even try, I don't mean try for position @ any random event, I mean try to attend a extra race (championship) or alter our normally attended race schedule.

 

Not complaining as the decision has been made, just giving insight to mindset.     i.e. Racing is for the rich, we are happy to attend and accel at our comfort level.

We are discussing as a Board.  

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5 minutes ago, TimS said:

Looks like I guessed right. 2020 was the last opportunity to race at COTA or Indy. 

Me too.  Happy to have done COTA and going to Indy.  You never know what the future holds though.  

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46 minutes ago, Jer said:

Me too.  Happy to have done COTA and going to Indy.  You never know what the future holds though.  

COTA is an incredible facility. I think people who haven't raced there don't realize what they're missing. The track, the pits, the garages...plus it's close to lots of good places to eat and stay. And even June with temps in the high-90's, it was very tolerable.

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