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Classing - need your vote


Jer
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Classing - need your vote!  

119 members have voted

  1. 1. Please vote for your favorite:

    • Leave classing as is, I want to race against likekind models like I have been
    • Change to classing based on points spent to build your car, point ranges to be determined
    • Some other idea?

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  • Poll closed on 08/31/2020 at 11:13 PM

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40 minutes ago, enginerd said:

1. The displacement based class structure doesn’t predict overall winner. Cars with equal potential to win come from all the classes. This means that the classes are a nice side race within the main race for the overall win.

 

2. Any classing system which restricts the performance of cars competing in the lower classes (perhaps by limiting the points invested to 200 / 300 / etc.) does predict the overall winner because a 200 point car is extremely unlikely to beat the cars prepped to the 500 point level.

 

3. That is the key argument against this classing structure. People who love single class racing and recognize that ChampCar is the only series in the country that offers single class racing hate any classing idea which actually changes the potential of different classes to compete for the overall win. 
 

4. You say “we already have classes!!!” No. Look at the payouts and the trophies. We have 800 / 600 / 400 / etc. or whatever it is with big trophies for overall podium, and for class wins it’s a $100 prize. It is a recognition of the fact that cars from any class have a (track dependent) roughly equal potential for winning overall, so overall is the main goal. 
 

5. If something like this points classing idea were implemented there would be no big overall win podium anymore. Podiums would be top 3 from each class. Winning the 300 point class would be every bit as legitimate as and equally compensated to winning the 500 point class. 

Some comments:

1. I think that the reason that a win can come from any of the present classes is that the ones who can win are prepped to the 500 point mark. An A class 500 point car is more likely to win than a 300 point C class car. 

 

2. Exactly. The performance level is reflected more by the points than by the displacement. Which makes imminent sense since points are supposed to be performance based.

 

3. I would say that it would be much more logical to group cars by performance level than engine size. Your statements to me argue more for classing by points in order to group cars of equal potential.

 

4. Yes, there are already classes, but the fact that the present classes don't predict where a winner is going to emerge from says to me that the present class structure is not doing a good job of sorting out potential performance.

 

5. Points classing would see the overall winners predominantly coming from the top class. That's normal. However, that wouldn't stop a 400 class car that was put together well and driven well and so on from upsetting the status quo and beating the 500 class cars. I've always found satisfaction in being an underdog and winning anyway. :) 

 

Recognizing the top performing and/or prepped cars by grouping them into the #1 tier has been going on for a long time - in other series. Formally acknowledging that there are tiers of performance in Champcar and restructuring the classes to reflect that to me seems like a reasonable thing to do.

Edited by mender
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hmmm, what if we separate cars out by total build cost....???....


If you want to spend money race against the other guys who want to spend money. 
Us cheap bastards get to race other cheap bastards. 

Edited by dwendel
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2 minutes ago, mender said:

Some comments:

1. I think that the reason that a win can come from any of the present classes is that the ones who can win are prepped to the 500 point mark. An A class 500 point car is more likely to win than a 300 point C class car. 

 

2. Exactly. The performance level is reflected more by the points than by the displacement. Which makes imminent sense since points are supposed to be performance based.

 

3. I would say that it would be much more logical to group cars by performance level than engine size. Your statements to me argue more for classing by points in order to group cars of equal potential.

 

4. Yes, there are already classes, but the fact that the present classes don't predict where a winner is going to emerge from says to me that the present class structure is not doing a good job of sorting out potential performance.

 

5. Points classing would see the overall winners predominantly coming from the top class. That's normal. 

 

Recognizing the top performing and/or prepped cars by grouping them into the #1 tier has been going on for a long time - in other series. Formally acknowledging that there are tiers of performance in Champcar and restructuring the classes to reflect that to me seems like a reasonable thing to do.

I think you are intentionally ignoring the entire point of my post.

It is very clear that you want class racing with separate tiers of cars and different performance in each tier. That is not what ChampCar is and I hope that ChampCar never becomes this.  

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Just now, enginerd said:

I think you are intentionally ignoring the entire point of my post.

It is very clear that you want class racing with separate tiers of cars and different performance in each tier. That is not what ChampCar is and I hope that ChampCar never becomes this.  

The entire point of your post being to say that you think the present classes are fine? if so, then yes, I ignored that and commented as I saw fit.

 

It's very clear that you think I "want" different classes in Champcar. I don't really worry about Champcar's classes but I don't feel that they are sacred. That seems to be reflected by recent discussions by the BoD as well, so joining the conversation seems reasonable to me.

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28 minutes ago, dwendel said:

hmmm, what if we separate cars out by total build cost....???....


If you want to spend money race against the other guys who want to spend money. 
Us cheap bastards get to race other cheap bastards. 

Your on, ask anyone we have raced against, the only new things one can find on our car would be fluids/tires/brakes... after 10 years doing this I finally broke down and bought a new fuel pump, the rest is recycled, yes even the hub bearings, for a couple of years I was successfully running reclaimed TTY rod bolts salvaged from the not blown cyls of a core engine.

 

Even our race tires do not retire, they go on the trailer, then enduro/derby cars.

 

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3 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Your on, ask anyone we have raced against, the only new things one can find on our car would be fluids/tires/brakes...

 

I mean isn't that how chump car was originally? A bunch of chumps racing cheaply made race cars. 

If you can make the used part last a race I am all for it. 

It does give an advantage to teams that own a junk yard, I mean auto parts recycling facility. But that is no different from teams that run a race shop. 

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1 minute ago, dwendel said:

I mean isn't that how chump car was originally? A bunch of chumps racing cheaply made race cars. 

If you can make the used part last a race I am all for it. 

It does give an advantage to teams that own a junk yard, I mean auto parts recycling facility. But that is no different from teams that run a race shop. 

Yes, that is how it was, for us, nothing has changed and we still keep pace or better then many with unlimited budgets... and for that, my increasing intolerance for those whining about the free things we need  to get the job done. :rolleyes:

Its not what you got, its how you use it, select the small stuff carefully and keep temps and oil in check and any healthy 200,000 mile engine will do the job for a respectable length of time.

I fix cars, only recently has the local pull and pay gotten on board as a sponsor, they have been great helping collect parts for our next build, we really dont need much to keep the current car running.

 

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, another cheap, and to some, inconceivable, the first 23,000 miles of chumpcar was on the 150,000 mile 20 year old used plastic/aluminum rad, it finally failed when my brother gave it concrete poisoning, a couple of reclaimed rads went in and out for the next few years (engine swap) till it was easier to purchase a new one and guess what, it had to be warrantied several times.

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Guys, we still are a one class series org in terms of importance.  As Mender said, the vast majority of winners will come from highly prepped cars pointed from 475 and upwards.  That won't change and the overall is still the goal (big trophies, bigger payouts).  I seriously doubt that anyone will detune their performance for a class win in lieu of battling for an overall.  Classes are a nice thing for people to look at when they are out of the running for the overall, but will never be our focus.  I don't want anyone to think we are going the way of WRL, AER, etc in terms of focus. But since we have classes, we can make them more meaningful than just displacement.  

 

Nothing is going to change for 2021.  We will used our same classing.  For 2022, we might change it.  My initial guess would be something like 475+, Class D.  $450-474 Class C, 425-449 class B and under 425 points would be class A.  But we will assign the breakdowns using data from all the entered cars.  The breakdown could change dramatically if we fine 90% of the cars are from 475-500+.  Then we would tighten the range up high.

 

A caveat, we might do nothing at all.  Again, the overall is what our ruleset is built for, not class racing.  

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1 hour ago, Jer said:

Guys, we still are a one class series org in terms of importance.  As Mender said, the vast majority of winners will come from highly prepped cars pointed from 475 and upwards.  That won't change and the overall is still the goal (big trophies, bigger payouts).  I seriously doubt that anyone will detune their performance for a class win in lieu of battling for an overall.  Classes are a nice thing for people to look at when they are out of the running for the overall, but will never be our focus.  I don't want anyone to think we are going the way of WRL, AER, etc in terms of focus. But since we have classes, we can make them more meaningful than just displacement.  

 

Nothing is going to change for 2021.  We will used our same classing.  For 2022, we might change it.  My initial guess would be something like 475+, Class D.  $450-474 Class C, 425-449 class B and under 425 points would be class A.  But we will assign the breakdowns using data from all the entered cars.  The breakdown could change dramatically if we fine 90% of the cars are from 475-500+.  Then we would tighten the range up high.

 

A caveat, we might do nothing at all.  Again, the overall is what our ruleset is built for, not class racing.  

So let me get this straight... you expect the vast majority of teams to continue to build to 500 and be in the top class. And racing for the overall win is still the main goal. And (correct me if I’m wrong here) the class winner prizes will still get little to no prize?

Edited by enginerd
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What is Champcar trying to achieve with a possible change to the class structure?

 

 This question needs to be answered before you can take a poll seriously, imo.

 

 With all the zero value add components on the FPV list and the still wonky VPI chart, I can't think of a single case where a 500 point car can't contend for the overall win assuming everything is equal (which it most certainly isn't).

 

 The real difference at the race track is the quality of build, quality of driver and quality of team.

 

---------

Also, return EC back to it's original format where it was to get new teams on the track and have them 500 point compliant within two events. When you look at Speedhive and see EC Official and non-EC Official it appears that EC is the true result and the non-EC is an afterthought class of cars. At the very least have the results say Saturday Official and Saturday EC.

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2 minutes ago, enginerd said:

So let me get this straight... you expect the vast majority of teams to continue to build to 500 and be in the top class. And racing for the overall win is still the main goal. And (correct me if I’m wrong here) the class winner prizes will still be about 1/10th of the value of the overall winner prize?

yes.

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4 minutes ago, Richard said:

What is Champcar trying to achieve with a possible change to the class structure?

 

 This question needs to be answered before you can take a poll seriously, imo.

 

 With all the zero value add components on the FPV list and the still wonky VPI chart, I can't think of a single case where a 500 point car can't contend for the overall win assuming everything is equal (which it most certainly isn't).

 

 The real difference at the race track is the quality of build, quality of driver and quality of team.

 

---------

Also, return EC back to it's original format where it was to get new teams on the track and have them 500 point compliant within two events. When you look at Speedhive and see EC Official and non-EC Official it appears that EC is the true result and the non-EC is an afterthought class of cars. At the very least have the results say Saturday Official and Saturday EC.

We are just trying to have the classes make more sense than just engine displacement.  Still not our focus, but since they are recognized in minor ways, we wants classing that's more logical.  

 

We have addressed EC so they are taken out of the final standings at the races' end, no mention during the broadcast or at least noting that EC is not part of the race, EC not being picked up as the leaders in the race if they are in front overall.    No further action being taken on the EC front, write a petition for next year's review but EC seems to not be a prominent issue anymore.  

Edited by Jer
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VPI's for all cars would have to be scrutinized to make this work.  Especially some of the V8 cars that start so ridiculously low and some of the underdog higher VPI cars that seem to not do well at all.

 

I have grown fond of the current class structure, as it seems to settle out relatively well and if you look at class lap times from a lot of events, they tend to be close as far as performance, outside of some of the better prepped/under prepped teams. 

 

I say don't change it until a well thought out system is identified using actual data.

 

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You simply cannot compare Champcar class racing with any other type of class racing because of the sheer number of cars eligible to participate in the series.

 

 LeMans may have four classes but there are fewer than 20 different Make/Models in the entire series, let alone in one single class.

 

 If you want it split up fairly then the only way to do it is power/weight with each car weighed and dyno'ed before each race.

Displacement is really the only other logical choice and it's working fine the way it is. Maybe, maybe, maybe increase A Class to 2.0L, combine B and C into B and then D would become C.

 

 I would also change the letter designation so that A Class is the largest displacement, not the smallest, like it is everywhere else.

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1 hour ago, Jer said:

yes.

So the whole point of this idea is to recognize that a small number of teams at each race have brought a knife to the gunfight, and you want to throw a small trophy at the most successful examples of those teams?

Edited by enginerd
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27 minutes ago, enginerd said:

So the whole point of this idea is to recognize that a small number of teams at each race have brought a knife to the gunfight, and you want to throw a small trophy and $100 at the most successful examples of those teams?

Look, if we started from scratch there would be no classes at all.   We inherited this structure from Condron in 2013 at Charlotte.   Busting my balls because we were looking at a better way to do it than a random engine displacement is not going to be fruitful.  It appears more people than not LIKE the idea of a change.  But I've spent way too much time on this already and I just don't have the time to go back and forth with you on something that isn't that important to me or to the series in general.    

 

Edited by Jer
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48 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

VPI's for all cars would have to be scrutinized to make this work.  Especially some of the V8 cars that start so ridiculously low and some of the underdog higher VPI cars that seem to not do well at all.

No question, the D-class, V8 cars are completely running away from the field this year. 

In 20 races, there have been 814 cars take the grid, 99 of those were D-class cars, or 12%. 

Out of 60 possible podium spots, D-class cars took 7, or 12%.

Out of 200 possible top 10 spots, D-class cars took 22, or 11%. 

The average top finish for a D-class car in 2020 is P10. They're dominating. 

 

But yeah, those D-class car V8 cars are ruining it for everybody else. Just like they always have and the series should do something about it. 

 

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40 minutes ago, enginerd said:

So the whole point of this idea is to recognize that a small number of teams at each race have brought a knife to the gunfight, and you want to throw a small trophy and $100 at the most successful examples of those teams?

I must be missing something, there is a $100 prize for class winners? 

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6 minutes ago, Snorman said:

I must be missing something, there is a $100 prize for class winners? 

I don't see anything in the rules about money or credits being paid for a class win, just a small trophy.

 

Edited by Jer
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13 minutes ago, Snorman said:

I must be missing something, there is a $100 prize for class winners? 

 

6 minutes ago, Jer said:

I don't see anything in the rules about money or credits being paid for a class win, just a small trophy.

 

My bad. Not sure where I got that idea from, I have edited previous posts. 

Edited by enginerd
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13 minutes ago, Snorman said:

No question, the D-class, V8 cars are completely running away from the field this year. 

In 20 races, there have been 814 cars take the grid, 99 of those were D-class cars, or 12%. 

Out of 60 possible podium spots, D-class cars took 7, or 12%.

Out of 200 possible top 10 spots, D-class cars took 22, or 11%. 

The average top finish for a D-class car in 2020 is P10. They're dominating. 

 

But yeah, those D-class car V8 cars are ruining it for everybody else. Just like they always have and the series should do something about it. 

 

Ligthen up Francis....maybe I should have said MR2's...that better?

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59 minutes ago, Jer said:

Look, if we started from scratch there would be no classes at all.   We inherited this structure from Condron in 2013 at Charlotte.   Busting my balls because we were looking at a better way to do it than a random engine displacement is not going to be fruitful.  It appears more people than not LIKE the idea of a change.  But I've spent way too much time on this already and I just don't have the time to go back and forth with you on something that isn't that important to me or to the series in general.    

 

This is a confusing new revelation for me...
 

Troy’s original petition read like each points bracket would be it’s own equally important class with legitimate prestige and prizes. So that is how I looked at this idea since it came from the board of directors meeting and that petition. 
 

PWR classing ideas put forth on the forum by various members felt the same way. Each class important and different on performance. Winning slowest class just as good as winning fastest class. Like WRL, GP3 and GP1 get the same prize. 
 

 

But now I hear that, at least with this idea, you are just trying to hand out these small trophies in a different way that will have no effect on how the overall podium works and won’t change the fact that everyone will still be trying for the main big prize.

 

Just musing here.... I don’t think that this will make the “we want classes” crowd happy. I thought the crowd saying “I want classes which make sense” wanted more than just a tiny trophy for winning their class under some new classing system. Of course I could be wrong here. 

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