Classing - need your vote

[Jer 3,411]

1 hour ago, Black Magic said:

 

Has been floated several times, names like "champcar classic", "limited, etc. Even had the idea of approved \homolgated drivetrain builds as the only option in that class (run stock or one optional approved as a unit alternate for cars with crappy oe engines). 

 

Similar complaints to what you are fielding now. 

We are not going to come up with a whole new rulebook for a unprepped class, but we CAN limit points on a class that will have a similar effect.  Sub 350 points or sub 400 points comes to mind.  

Edited August 25, 2020 by Jer

[Jer 3,411]

I hear class position even on my own team, as in "we are 17th overall but 2nd in class."  This usually happens when we have an issue and can't win.  It does make drivers feel a little better about a race where they can't win.  I build my car to win overall and that's the goal though so we almost never discuss class while in the running for the win.  

[enginerd 6,584]

30 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

 

There are certain cars that will never win or even have a chance to, and that is a fact.  If the series feels they need to give them a shot at a lesser trophy that's fine, go ahead and do that, but please use actual data collected to make it make sense. 

Certain cars or certain teams? As I have said too many times, by design every car on the VPI list should have the potential to run at the front, and if this isn’t the case then that particular car should have its VPI / swap factor / etc. adjusted, or cars at the front should be adjusted to give them higher points.

Therefore, we shouldn’t have “classes that make sense” based on the car, because all the cars are on a theoretically level playing field!

 

Another possibility is a classing system which recognizes that it is the team which is the key factor in predicting race outcomes, not the car choice. One class for rookie year teams, one for 10 year veterans and past race winners. Etc. 
 

The limited prep idea is also interesting.

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by enginerd

[Jer 3,411]

11 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Certain cars or certain teams? As I have said too many times, by design every car on the VPI list should have the potential to run at the front, and if this isn’t the case then that particular car should have its VPI / swap factor / etc. adjusted, or cars at the front should be adjusted to give them higher points.

Therefore, we shouldn’t have “classes that make sense” based on the car, because all the cars are on a theoretically level playing field!

 

Another possibility is a classing system which recognizes that it is the team which is the key factor in predicting race outcomes, not the car choice. One class for rookie year teams, one for 10 year veterans and past race winners. Etc. 
 

The limited prep idea is also interesting.

 

A stock, unmolested Miata will never be fast enough to win overall, but we sure see a lot of them still in our series.  I've seen numerous races where the stockish Miatas are having their own little race within a race and having a blast doing it.  Barber and Laguna come to mind.  This would just give those stockish cars something to shoot for.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Jer

[Snorman 2,891]

22 minutes ago, Jer said:

We are not going to come up with a whole new rulebook for a unprepped class, but we CAN limit points on a class that will have a similar effect.  Sub 350 points or sub 400 points comes to mind.  

So if I start with a 225 point car I can do a helluva a lot with 125-175 points. How are you going to enforce a "limited prep" class with cars that have a very low starting VPI if it's points-based? And if it's points-based, then the higher VPI cars already have somewhat of an advantage (technically). Somebody can bring in a zero-mod Miata NC with limited fuel and race a 225 point car with a pretty substantial mod list and they're both 350-400 points. It won't be long before people start complaining IMO. Again, just IMO.

 

[Jer 3,411]

Just now, Snorman said:

So if I start with a 225 point car I can do a helluva a lot with 125-175 points. How are you going to enforce a "limited prep" class with cars that have a very low starting VPI if it's points-based? And if it's points-based, then the higher VPI cars already have somewhat of an advantage (technically). Somebody can bring in a zero-mod Miata NC with limited fuel and race a 225 point car with a pretty substantial mod list and they're both 350-400 points. It won't be long before people start complaining IMO. Again, just IMO.

 

If you build a 390 point car, it shouldn't be able to compete for the overall IMO.  There's a reason why the car started so low in points.  

 

And we can't please everyone.  To try is a fool's errand.  

[Snorman 2,891]

Just now, Jer said:

If you build a 390 point car, it shouldn't be able to compete for the overall IMO.  There's a reason why the car started so low in points.  

 

And we can't please everyone.  To try is a fool's errand.  

I'm talking about this "limited prep" idea. If it's points-based, I don't see how it works. 

My own opinion...this points-based idea isn't going to please any more people than the current displacement-based classing does. 

[Team Infiniti 15,385]

1 hour ago, enginerd said:

We must be talking with different teams because I rarely hear mention of class.

Hear it all the time, my team mentions it more but I even said it as recently as Indy day 2 where our laptimes were not going to cut overall.

31 minutes ago, Jer said:

I hear class position even on my own team, as in "we are 17th overall but 2nd in class."  This usually happens when we have an issue and can't win.  It does make drivers feel a little better about a race where they can't win.  I build my car to win overall and that's the goal though so we almost never discuss class while in the running for the win.  

 

[55mini 753]

2 hours ago, Ray Franck said:

  If these rules and classes are so bad.  

   Why, or howcome, the racing and finishing is so fantastic  ?

I can tell you Saturdays race had 5,6,and 7 all in the range of 6 second spread and Patrick had a pass at 11 to give us 6th. Doesn't get any better.  Ray your spot on.

[Black Magic 1,427]

Maybe the easiest thing for "limited prep", a separate tech sheet that just marks "banned" by items not allowed in limited prep class. Like aero if you want that, etc. 

 

Same rules, you just don't get a fixed point value for certain items.

 

This is going to point out the questionably low vpi cars with good performance\technicals, something you might need to be ready for.

[enginerd 6,584]

4 minutes ago, 55mini said:

I can tell you Saturdays race had 5,6,and 7 all in the range of 6 second spread and Patrick had a pass at 11 to give us 6th. Doesn't get any better.  Ray your spot on.

1-3 were on the same lap, and then 4-9 were all on the same lap 3 back from the podium 3. 

[Snorman 2,891]

24 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Hear it all the time, my team mentions it more but I even said it as recently as Indy day 2 where our laptimes were not going to cut overall.

 

I think it's been a little more popular with teams since the class winners started going to impound. There's recognition and a trophy involved, so it makes it worthwhile to keep fighting for it. 

What could be a better idea than completely changing it as it gets more popular? 

[Team Infiniti 15,385]

19 minutes ago, Snorman said:

I think it's been a little more popular with teams since the class winners started going to impound. There's recognition and a trophy involved, so it makes it worthwhile to keep fighting for it. 

What could be a better idea than completely changing it as it gets more popular? 

I do think sub-classing is great for team morale, bringing class winners up for impound was genius, but the recent EC class lessen can not be forgotten its a "class" folks were building to rather then try before you mod your car to "Champ Spec".

[cowboys647 182]

1 hour ago, enginerd said:

Therefore, we shouldn’t have “classes that make sense” based on the car, because all the cars are on a theoretically level playing field!

 

Like others have said before, cars that are 300pts are not, or extremely rarely, competing for the overall win versus 500pt cars. Like Jer said,  mostly stock miatas, e30s, etc make up a large amount of most fields and have extremely little chance of an overall win. 

 

Most of these cars are still going to join and race if we keep the class structure the same or change to a points based classing since we all just love to race. Will it bring more people over from other limited/spec series since they can be competitive with somebody "in class" without having to hack up their car? Maybe, maybe not.. But I don't see a downside to the change since the people competing for the overall win are still doing so and the people who downgrade their cars only get a trophy and bragging rights for "meaningless" class wins.

 

I don't love the idea of a "limited prep" class that has a change to the rulebook. We need to be simplifying/clarifying the rulebook, not adding huge amounts just to appease the class argument. The whole series is based on point equality so I don't see how a class structure with a point system is unfair. (Let's keep the argument that cars of similar points are not equal for a different thread)

[enginerd 6,584]

1 hour ago, cowboys647 said:

 

Like others have said before, cars that are 300pts are not, or extremely rarely, competing for the overall win versus 500pt cars. Like Jer said,  mostly stock miatas, e30s, etc make up a large amount of most fields and have extremely little chance of an overall win. 

 

Most of these cars are still going to join and race if we keep the class structure the same or change to a points based classing since we all just love to race. Will it bring more people over from other limited/spec series since they can be competitive with somebody "in class" without having to hack up their car? Maybe, maybe not.. But I don't see a downside to the change since the people competing for the overall win are still doing so and the people who downgrade their cars only get a trophy and bragging rights for "meaningless" class wins.

 

I don't love the idea of a "limited prep" class that has a change to the rulebook. We need to be simplifying/clarifying the rulebook, not adding huge amounts just to appease the class argument. The whole series is based on point equality so I don't see how a class structure with a point system is unfair. (Let's keep the argument that cars of similar points are not equal for a different thread)

My point is that the teams running these 300 point cars chose to limit their prep below the 500 point max. Any lack of performance has nothing to do with the car choice or the rules.

These teams come out and race with us now... why are some people scared that they will go away unless trophies are handed out to them? They clearly love racing and don’t think chasing a podium spot is worth the effort. 

[cowboys647 182]

1 hour ago, enginerd said:

My point is that the teams running these 300 point cars chose to limit their prep below the 500 point max. Any lack of performance has nothing to do with the car choice or the rules.

These teams come out and race with us now... why are some people scared that they will go away unless trophies are handed out to them? They clearly love racing and don’t think chasing a podium spot is worth the effort. 

I'm just thinking about cars that run multiple series or want to keep eligibility in another series for resale value. I don't think it's a lack of effort for a lot of teams. Trophies are being handed out now with the current class structure and has unequal participation.

 

Question 1: Do you disagree that we might get more spec cars if they are competitive in class without modifications? 

 

Question 2: Do you think the change to the class structure to points decrease participation?

 

Question 3: Will the new proposed class structure have any negative effect on the cars racing for the overall win?

Edited August 25, 2020 by cowboys647
Added info/questions

[MR2 Biohazard 1,420]

On 8/24/2020 at 1:46 PM, enginerd said:

This is a confusing new revelation for me...
 

Troy’s original petition read like each points bracket would be it’s own equally important class with legitimate prestige and prizes. So that is how I looked at this idea since it came from the board of directors meeting and that petition. 
 

PWR classing ideas put forth on the forum by various members felt the same way. Each class important and different on performance. Winning slowest class just as good as winning fastest class. Like WRL, GP3 and GP1 get the same prize. 
 

 

But now I hear that, at least with this idea, you are just trying to hand out these small trophies in a different way that will have no effect on how the overall podium works and won’t change the fact that everyone will still be trying for the main big prize.

 

Just musing here.... I don’t think that this will make the “we want classes” crowd happy. I thought the crowd saying “I want classes which make sense” wanted more than just a tiny trophy for winning their class under some new classing system. Of course I could be wrong here. 

This might not be much point discussing class based points anymore, but let me clarify the idea behind what I put forth and the math that I worked out. I looked at mutliple races, I got raced point values and classes from Champcar and did the math on it. I used 3-5 races with larger car counts. The top teams almost always had 450 points or more or a swap/head work. It was pretty obvious that once I looked at the numbers the points to speed made sense. I did not just make it up in my head and say that sounds good, I used the numbers to come up with it. I sent it all to BOD, but from what I gather, no one opened up the excel with all the data and spreadsheets in them and just read the petition and went as it was, but I could be wrong, maybe some did open the excel.

 

The main class was to be C with 450-600 points (500+ still getting laps). This would be 50-75% of the field. Then you have B with 400-450 points and below 400. Those two classes are about 20-30% combined and 600 points and above (basically EC) are 10-15%. It was almost always the top 10 or more cars in the C class so overall is overall with a few B classes in like 8th or something once in a while.  I just looked at where people finish. Take a current race and think about the points they have.

 

The intent was to make the overall winner more meaningful and still have battles in the midfield. The B, A and EC classes would get trophies for winning, but not prize value and only C class gets the value.

 

The bad news for most is that even though most want it from what I see and from all the people I talk to the people that complain the loudest have won again and you know who you are. It has been pushed to 2022 already and the BOD members are already talking about not doing it to appease the complainers. I still think it is a great idea and long term would pan out very well and that is the really sad part. I want to see the series grow and stay prosperous long term because, as a selfish gesture, I want to keep on racing in Champcar with all of you and not see it go away.

 

Troy

[MR2 Biohazard 1,420]

23 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

I'd love to see a limited prep class.  400 points max, no swaps, limited aero (air dam in the front and spoiler in the rear.)  I think it could be a great place to start for new teams and likely an end game for teams that really want to keep it lower money, both for the build and consumables.  

 

The below 400 point class, when I proposed it, had no swaps or internal engine modifications. You could add no aero, or only wing, splitter and air dam. The intent was just what you are saying, to keep it simple and cheap to get into the series and still have someone to race. It is only a small portion of the field, but a starting point is a good thing to have.

[MR2 Biohazard 1,420]

1 hour ago, cowboys647 said:

I'm just thinking about cars that run multiple series or want to keep eligibility in another series for resale value. I don't think it's a lack of effort for a lot of teams. Trophies are being handed out now with the current class structure and has unequal participation.

 

Question 1: Do you disagree that we might get more spec cars if they are competitive in class without modifications? 

 

Question 2: Do you think the change to the class structure to points decrease participation?

 

Question 3: Will the new proposed class structure have any negative effect on the cars racing for the overall win?

1- I think we would get more cars and teams to come into the series as they see a level playing field to start out in, maybe stay if they are feel that is their limit on speed and budget. 

2- I would think it will increase it.

3- I actually see it having more of an effect as more cars, similar speed, are all going for the overall win in that top class. The true fast cars will be in the fast car class, more than half the field, and have a great battle like they do now.

 

 

I do see it as the 10:1 ratio. If for every 9 people that would like classes and 1 person does not, but that one person is very vocal on the forum, sends emails to who will listen and talks up at the track gets listened to then that one person has the influence. Same can get said about me who wants classes based on points, but I am vastly outnumbered in my influence, that is for sure.  I see it as the pole asked. 1- Do not change anything and keep it as is (we all know how business that act that way survive long term) 2- Change and adapt or 3- Get rid of all classes and just go overall.

[Snorman 2,891]

44 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

The bad news for most is that even though most want it from what I see and from all the people I talk to the people that complain the loudest have won again and you know who you are. It has been pushed to 2022 already and the BOD members are already talking about not doing it to appease the complainers. I still think it is a great idea and long term would pan out very well and that is the really sad part. I want to see the series grow and stay prosperous long term because, as a selfish gesture, I want to keep on racing in Champcar with all of you and not see it go away.

 

Troy

I think the poll that Jer started showed about ~50% support for the idea. 

I'm not so much against it as I don't really see the real benefit of it. I understand the distribution of classes. I'm not sure you have data that shows "new team" VPI's and/or performance to take that into account and I also don't think it can be assumed that new teams start with low VPI cars. That's where the big question is for me. 

Also, I think that the class-racing thing has gained in a bit of popularity over the last couple of years for reasons many have pointed out. Maybe it's not a good idea to upset that apple cart and perhaps a year of watching and putting together a more detailed plan would make this a better change. 

EDIT: you probably know, we've been a proponent of the current class racing, which is why we like our 626. Under your proposal, that car still remains a very low VPI car, so it likely won't get impacted very much if any. 

Edited August 25, 2020 by Snorman

[MR2 Biohazard 1,420]

1 hour ago, Snorman said:

I think the poll that Jer started showed about ~50% support for the idea. 

I'm not so much against it as I don't really see the real benefit of it. I understand the distribution of classes. I'm not sure you have data that shows "new team" VPI's and/or performance to take that into account and I also don't think it can be assumed that new teams start with low VPI cars. That's where the big question is for me. 

Also, I think that the class-racing thing has gained in a bit of popularity over the last couple of years for reasons many have pointed out. Maybe it's not a good idea to upset that apple cart and perhaps a year of watching and putting together a more detailed plan would make this a better change. 

EDIT: you probably know, we've been a proponent of the current class racing, which is why we like our 626. Under your proposal, that car still remains a very low VPI car, so it likely won't get impacted very much if any. 

That is a good question as to what new teams come to champcar with. I will ask Doc as he keeps track of all the new teams and we should be able to noodle out the point values and look at how well they do on those races.

 

I think most cars and teams will not be affected much, but will improve the who the race at more speed similar to themselves. On your lower point 626, what points is it and how fast is it compared to your CrowdKiller mustang? I would imagine like 5-7 seconds a lap slower average ?

[enginerd 6,584]

I’m out. No more posting on classes for me until I run out of self discipline. My views are well known and I don’t need to fill the threads repeating myself. 

[Snorman 2,891]

41 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

That is a good question as to what new teams come to champcar with. I will ask Doc as he keeps track of all the new teams and we should be able to noodle out the point values and look at how well they do on those races.

 

I think most cars and teams will not be affected much, but will improve the who the race at more speed similar to themselves. On your lower point 626, what points is it and how fast is it compared to your CrowdKiller mustang? I would imagine like 5-7 seconds a lap slower average ?

The 626 base VPI is 225. The fact is, that car runs solid and can go 2 hours on fuel. If we ever decided that the three of us were going to race it, I think we could get it into the top 10 at a lot of tracks. We've got at least one top 10 and a few P-teens. There's more than a 5-7 second/lap delta to the Mustang, but that car is also stopping for fuel every ~1:30 and we've put a helluva' lot more time into making the Mustang fast. 

[DEE DEE 817]

So these proposed  changes would for the betterment of the series ?

[MMiskoe 258]

If the goal is to get new teams, or retain the ones you have, turning the rule book on its head will discourage the latter.  Race series with stable AND ENFORCED rules tend to last longer.  Champcar is the wild west with allowances that are banned in one manner, openly encouraged in another manner, for the same item.  This on its own is a huge deterant, none of the proposed plans even mention that.

 

If you're plan is to do away with class racing, you best be prepared to scrap most of the cars running now and expect major rebuilds to be done.  This will drive away people who aren't willing to start over from scratch.

 

COVID 19 is going to have a huge impact on participation in the next 2 years.  Look what happened to club-level racing in 2009 through 2012.  Lack of economic prosperity will reduce fields.  Racing, boats, RV's are great indexes of disposable income and all signs point towards less economic prosperity in the next few years while we sort this out.  Champcar should be looking at how to stabilize and retain the fields that they have, not how to start over.  Assuming continued success is part of the plan.