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Stop changing the rules


petawawarace
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As a new Champcar team I am very frustrated by the constant rule changes and “interpretations”. The rules and points allowed for our car have changed 4 times in the last 8 months since we started building the car.  The rules are insanely complicated and convoluted.  There has got to be a way to keep things simple.  
 

Champcar has great numbers at most tracks, so it’s obviously working.  Stop screwing with it.

Edited by petawawarace
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Ding! We have a winner!

 

The ruleset is complicated because it is not consistent.  For exampled, excluding a modification because it is a store-bought item but allowing it to be done by hand in the garage makes for a ton of interpretation that is not necessarily well policed.  Not being clear about what constitutes a component as part of a swap allows for lots of vague allowances and loop holes.

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Rule changes for written or unwritten rules?  Plenty of examples of both.

 

Power steering cooler - 0, 5, 10, 20, then 0, but only if the car came with a cooler stock was it 20 points for non-OE, if it didn't have one then you could add one for free.  Also in there when it peaked at 20 points you could bend all the tubing you wanted for free then you couldn't then you could

Non-OE flywheel - 15, 0, not allowed/free, 10, now 0?  Was not a written rule till not allowed/free at the same time depending on your model of car

Ford GT40 = GT40P heads - yes/no answers for different teams, was super difficult to find the right head from the 90's

Needle bearing u-joint replacing rag joint in steering - 5, 0

Repurposed free, then if it was on the fixed VPI list it was the fixed points even if repurposed, then repurposed was free

2X rear shocks - for the value I could use the vertical shock plus horizontal shock to get the value of the new shock then I could only use the value of the vertical shock and had to take points for exceeding 2X, I think that added 50 points.  To compensate took off the long tube headers, went to the stock shorties for zero points, then later had the points for the long tube again, exhaust has been modified three times now.  Was really difficult to find stock 1990 Mustang headers because everybody threw them away. 

Brakes 2X - could use 2X Cobra, then I couldn't, then I could.  Had 96 Cobra installed, swap to cheaper 99-04 GT, swap back to Cobra.

Brakes 2X -  per component only, then all together, now not sure

Non-OE suspension component for a pair of left/right control arms - 20, 10, 20

Changing from mechanical to electric rad fan - 0, 10, 0, both fans sitting on a shelf

Utilizing the built in trans oil cooler in the rad as an engine oil cooler (rad from an auto car but has manual as raced) - 0, 20, 0, have engine oil cooler sitting on a shelf

Pre 93 Mustang base VPI 200 then 250 then 200

TBird base VPI = 200 then 300 (because a TBird led Tyler by a lap that one time) then 250

K member = 20 when it was unwritten then 10 when it was written, have our hand modified K-member in the car for zero, it would have been 10 when the repurposed rule changed even though hand modified

Short shifter mechanism and handle free then ?? points for the mechanism and only handle was free, then both free

Surge tank 2 gallons then 0.5 gallons, 2 gallon tank still sitting on shelf

Cam change includes rockers because some cams and rockers come as a kit, then it is not included so 50 then 100 points. Cam sitting on the shelf.

Non-OE trans internals not allowed, free, not allowed, don't talk about it

Rear gears, OE, winter package, within model - we didn't bother changing any gears as we gave up by then

 

I could probably think up some more if I tried a little harder.  Point swings from -50 to +100 PER item in a single year.

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Now that I look back at it I would have just built 800+ points EC years ago, developed the car every year and wait for the rules to come to me.  I hate looking at the hacked up changed three times exhaust.  We spent a whole year battling the poor 99-04 front calipers instead of tuning the car, what a waste of time that was and scary to see the pistons crumble and fall out every race.  Numerous other teams spent their years developing their car while we spent much time just changing parts then putting them back on a year or two later, re-tuning then re-tuning again.

 

More:

A arms went from Mustang to TBird to Mustang to TBird, not a double post, 3 swaps

Running with stupid 5 lug front and 4 lug rear rims, couldn't afford the diff swap then we could, now free because "drilling".  Still run 4 lugs on rear because we have the rims

Car claimed as 1988 V8 LX, 1988 V8 GT, 1993 Cobra, 1988 TBird.  Comically it was originally manufactured a 1990 4 cylinder then became the only 1993 blue notch Cobra in existence.

Speed density, chipped speed density, Mega Squirt as computers went from 75 to 0.

We didn't change injectors when they became free, we have not maxed out our 19's yet.

I see someone was just caught for a stroker.  Last year we were advised a stroker would never be measured and to go for it, glad we didn't dump $10,000 into that comment to only tune and run for one year then have to re-tune for the old engine.

Edit: another big one, national parts only, then dealer prices allowed for 2X.

 

It was fun racing but what a waste of time chasing the "stable" rules with constant swapping parts.

 

Edited by Ron_e
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21 hours ago, mindspin311 said:

Can you lay out what has changed for you? Curious what you're having to deal with.

I was referring to the multiple posts this week about scrapping the current plan and creating something entirely new.

 

But there is a lot of rules creep taking place.

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15 hours ago, Ron_e said:

Now that I look back at it I would have just built 800+ points EC years ago, developed the car every year and wait for the rules to come to me.  I hate looking at the hacked up changed three times exhaust.  We spent a whole year battling the poor 99-04 front calipers instead of tuning the car, what a waste of time that was and scary to see the pistons crumble and fall out every race.  Numerous other teams spent their years developing their car while we spent much time just changing parts then putting them back on a year or two later, re-tuning then re-tuning again.

 

More:

A arms went from Mustang to TBird to Mustang to TBird, not a double post, 3 swaps

Running with stupid 5 lug front and 4 lug rear rims, couldn't afford the diff swap then we could, now free because "drilling".  Still run 4 lugs on rear because we have the rims

Car claimed as 1988 V8 LX, 1988 V8 GT, 1993 Cobra, 1988 TBird.  Comically it was originally manufactured a 1990 4 cylinder then became the only 1993 blue notch Cobra in existence.

Speed density, chipped speed density, Mega Squirt as computers went from 75 to 0.

We didn't change injectors when they became free, we have not maxed out our 19's yet.

I see someone was just caught for a stroker.  Last year we were advised a stroker would never be measured and to go for it, glad we didn't dump $10,000 into that comment to only tune and run for one year then have to re-tune for the old engine.

Edit: another big one, national parts only, then dealer prices allowed for 2X.

 

It was fun racing but what a waste of time chasing the "stable" rules with constant swapping parts.

 

Wow you were thinking of dumping $10k into a motor clearly against the rules both the spirit and written because someone says they don't check.

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11 minutes ago, morganf said:

Wow you were thinking of dumping $10k into a motor clearly against the rules both the spirit and written because someone says they don't check.

 

It was a brief thought, people are obviously doing it as per the race yesterday, it wasn't just "someone", it was someone on the board or tech that said it was clearly not against the rules and has been commonly accepted - will not narrow it down from there.  It has been very clearly stated that 305/350 is commonly accepted as equivalent because externally they look the same so why on earth should a 302/347 also not be commonly accepted?  Because Ford?

Edited by Ron_e
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My Stock Late Model. Purchased it from Ford Performance. Factory built and sealed. This prevents the motor from being tampered with. You know. To keep from cheating!!!😉
 

Besides the 347 has the same bore as a 302. The 305 has the same stroke as the 350. It’s the same.....only different. 😁

 

Personally when I run a slightly altered motor I will run something absurdly vulgar to take attention away from the cheaty part I am hiding. Unfortunately Jay has told me that type of felony can be detrimental to my health and well being. 
 

 

  I asked Ron to drive with my team. He flatly refused my invitation unless I installed the 363 c.i. Motor my car. Rrrrreeeeaaalllllyyy hurt my feelings. 😂

 

4 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

305/350 logic is more about being available in all chassis and was a option, not only that, 305 is a small BORE 350, stroke remains the same. 

 

 

Educate me, what does a 347 come in stock?


 

 

Edited by Cam Benty
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3 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

305/350 logic is more about being available in all chassis and was a option, not only that, 305 is a small BORE 350, stroke remains the same. 

 

 

Educate me, what does a 347 come in stock?

 

OK 302/351 also manufactured in same chassis' as well by Ford.  Who is going to argue about 4 ci when 45 ci doesn't matter?  If I remember correctly wasn't it said it was because 305/350 make pretty much the same hp and are externally the same?  Similarly 302/347 should make pretty much the same hp, using the same logic of course, not my logic as I wouldn't want to take credit for it.

 

Regardless of semantics, at the end of the day I was given the go-ahead to do a 347 and it would be externally identical to a 302... hp and $ might be a little different.  I wasn't interested but other people have more dollars than I do, or maybe the unwritten rule has changed?

Edited by Ron_e
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 The biggest issue is when rules are changed Without series communication. I have had Many issues I did not handle well. I should have asked fellow platform builders when I needed clarification. Crowd control, Enginerd, Ron and a few others have helped me with points and rules in the past year or so. Perhaps instead selling the build I was doing I should have spoken With these individuals in depth. It would have cleared up many issues. 
 


   It is difficult to cover all car makes and platforms. I don’t have all the answers. Nobody does. Maybe a designated person to ask from each common platform that a builder can contact for clarification on a build issue? This could possibly help the With the crushing amounts of emails that go unanswered. Perhaps ask the top tier teams to help with clarification of unanswered emails. These teams obviously are a wealth of info since they are on jack stands at the end of races. 
 

   If this is perceived as out of line I stand corrected. 

 

  

  
 

  
 

On 8/22/2020 at 9:44 AM, MR2 Biohazard said:

Can you give details of what changed for you? I know I have had to add points two times this year for things added that I have had the same for 5 years and now take laps. Curious how others are affected.

 

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On 8/22/2020 at 10:37 AM, mindspin311 said:

Can you lay out what has changed for you? Curious what you're having to deal with.

I read the rules one way, 35 points per corner for adjustable coilovers, then was corrected by tech that it’s actually only 25 points.  Built my car around that.  6 months later, Found a tech desk ruling that was actually 35pts, asked for clarification that and they told me they made a mistake telling me only 25. I was pissed, but nothing I can do.  So I went and bought new shocks to get my points totals down.  Now I see they’ve changed it for next year and it will only be 20pts per corner.
 

 

 And this is all in the last 8 months.   

Edited by petawawarace
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I had some thoughts a few years ago that I didn't think would get much traction here but maybe it's a good time. 

 

1. I was thinking that Champcar should freeze the rules and the VPI values. Period. New cars could be added, new parts could be added to the fixed value list as needed but no more adjustments or tweaks or allowances or whatever. 

2. Use a class structure based on points. Maybe start at 300 points, then 400, 500, 600 (yes, 600) and maybe even 700 eventually.

3. No laps if you go past 500 points, you just move up a class so there would no longer be this fear of going over 500 points and not being competitive because you're laps down before you even start.

4. New cars could be more fairly valued instead of compressing values to keep the VPI close to 500 points. If it's a 580 point performance car with no mods, it's in the 500 class with no laps to worry about. If it's a 650 point car because it started at 400 points and it got 250 points worth of mods, it's in the 600 class.

 

Of course, that was before the free parts went crazy, aero had more than a token value, the swap calculator weights (yes, I said weights!) hadn't been screwed up by someone wanting to avoid a one lap penalty because they would be over 500 points (horrors!) with one particular swap, and cars that were considerably newer and obviously better right out of the box were gven an absurdly low VPI so they also wouldn't get a lap or two. 

 

The artificial compressing of point values and VPIs to allow the top teams to adhere to the arbitrary 500 point barrier has resulted in increasingly complex rules and allowances in order to balance the pointy end of the field on the razor edge. This thread is where things are heading if this general trend continues.

 

Just my opinion though, feel free to flame away as usual.

Edited by mender
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2 minutes ago, mender said:

I had some thoughts a few years ago that I didn't think would get much traction here but maybe it's a good time. 

 

1. I was thinking that Champcar should freeze the rules and the VPI values. Period. New cars could be added, new parts could be added to the fixed value list as needed but no more adjustments or tweaks or allowances or whatever. 

2. Use a class structure based on points. Maybe start at 300 points, then 400, 500, 600 (yes, 600) and maybe even 700 eventually.

3. No laps if you go past 500 points, you just move up a class so there would no longer be this fear of going over 500 points and not being competitive because you're laps down before you even start.

4. New cars could be more fairly valued instead of compressing values to keep the VPI close to 500 points. If it's a 580 point performance car with no mods, it's in the 500 class with no laps to worry about. If it's a 650 point car because it started at 400 points and it got 250 points worth of mods, it's in the 600 class.

 

Of course, that was before the free parts went crazy, aero had more than a token value, the swap calculator weights (yes, I said weights!) hadn't been screwed up by someone wanting to avoid a one lap penalty because they would be over 500 points (horrors!) with one particular swap, and cars that were considerably newer and obviously better right out of the box were gven an absurdly low VPI so they also wouldn't get a lap or two. 

 

The artificial compressing of point values and VPIs to allow the top teams to adhere to the arbitrary 500 point barrier has resulted in increasingly complex rules and allowances in order to balance the pointy end of the field on the razor edge. This thread is where things are heading if this general trend continues.

 

Just my opinion though, feel free to flame away as usual.

Only issue I see is this *seems* to get away from 1 class racing.

 

If you hadn't included above 500 or cars, I would be fully onboard.

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3 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Only issue I see is this *seems* to get away from 1 class racing.

 

If you hadn't included above 500 or cars, I would be fully onboard.

The reason for going over the 500 point mark for classes is to get rid of the stigma of getting laps; instead you just move up a class.

 

I called it 500, 600 and eventually 700; it's presently called EC. :)

 

 

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1 minute ago, mender said:

The reason for going over the 500 point mark is to get rid of the stigma of getting laps; instead you just move up a class.

 

I called it 500, 600 and eventually 700; it's presently called EC. :)

I get that.  However, we are still ALL racing for overall.  A car with penalty laps (above 500 pts) is still gonna have that stigma.  A car at 560 prolly ain't winnin.

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10 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I get that.  However, we are still ALL racing for overall.  A car with penalty laps (above 500 pts) is still gonna have that stigma.  A car at 560 prolly ain't winnin.

No penalty laps.

 

A car that used to be 490 points and at the pointy end would be faster with another 70 points worth of mods. I think it would likely be winning.

 

Seemed like a good time to mention it with the recent discussions about classes and such. At this point there would have to be rollbacks on values to get back to realistic numbers, probably based more on actual physics like Drew was referring to. Physics is much less subjective than by-golly guesses or gut reactions. :) 

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4 minutes ago, mender said:

A car that used to be 490 points and at the pointy end would be faster with another 70 points worth of mods. I think it would likely be winning.

 

Seemed like a good time to mention it with the recent discussions about classes and such. At this point there would have to be rollbacks on values to get back to realistic numbers, probably based more on actual physics like Drew was referring to. Physics is much less subjective than by-golly guesses or gut reactions. :) 

I'm at 475 with aero front and rear, an engine swap that puts me in the exponential part of the graph, coilovers, flares, trans swap, radiator with points, exhaust manifold with points, tuned ecu, etc....  i cant really go faster with points if you gave me 95 more points...  not dominiatingly faster anyway.

 

If we roll back pts (totally in favor of, make me take stuff off my car, please!) I'm somewhat on board.

Edited by wvumtnbkr
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19 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I'm at 475 with aero front and rear, an engine swap that puts me in the exponential part of the graph, coilovers, flares, trans swap, radiator with points, exhaust manifold with points, tuned ecu, etc....  i cant really go faster with points if you gave me 95 more points...  not dominiatingly faster anyway.

 

If we roll back pts (totally in favor of, make me take stuff off my car, please!) I'm somewhat on board.

Like I said, it would be a return to a time before freebies and 10 point aero.  You wouldn't have to take parts off if you didn't want to but you would be well above the 500 mark. There may be a bunch of pointy end cars that end up running in the 600 class, but they'll still be grouped together.

 

If done right, you would still be racing the same people and cars but but with more control over who you wanted to race with. If you do your job better than others, you'll have the satisfaction of beating supposedly higher level cars. If you find out that your mods aren't doing what you thought they should, pull some parts off and drop down a class without slowing down much. 

 

I think it would give teams more flexibility to decide where they want to be racing. Feel free to use anything I've said to move in another direction, I'm just spit-balling a bit here.

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8 minutes ago, mender said:

Like I said, it would be a return to a time before freebies and 10 point aero.  You wouldn't have to take parts off if you didn't want to but you would be well above the 500 mark. There may be a bunch of pointy end cars that end up running in the 600 class, but they'll still be grouped together.

 

If done right, you would still be racing the same people and cars but but with more control over who you wanted to race with. If you do your job better than others, you'll have the satisfaction of beating supposedly higher level cars. If you find out that your mods aren't doing what you thought they should, pull some parts off and drop down a class without slowing down much. 

 

I think it would give teams more flexibility to decide where they want to be racing. 

Basically you want class racing, not overall?    If so, it's pretty much unacceptable, work from another angle.

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