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24 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Basically you want class racing, not overall?    If so, it's pretty much unacceptable, work from another angle.

QFT

 

If you want class racing, go try WRL / AER / LDRL / Lemons. If you want to race for overall against the entire field of various sizes, shapes, and years of BMWs, miatas, hondas, nissans, Mustangs, etc. then ChampCar is THE ONLY series out there that does this. This is ChampCar's niche, stop trying to ruin ChampCar.

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As a new Champcar team I am very frustrated by the constant rule changes and “interpretations”. The rules and points allowed for our car have changed 4 times in the last 8 months since we started buil

Rule changes for written or unwritten rules?  Plenty of examples of both.   Power steering cooler - 0, 5, 10, 20, then 0, but only if the car came with a cooler stock was it 20 points for no

From my (albeit citrus tainted) view, a few teams/persons hold sway over the rules/judgments. They get things adjusted to help themselves, and hurt there major competitors.   I willn't put n

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25 minutes ago, enginerd said:

QFT

 

If you want class racing, go try WRL / AER / LDRL / Lemons. If you want to race for overall against the entire field of various sizes, shapes, and years of BMWs, miatas, hondas, nissans, Mustangs, etc. then ChampCar is THE ONLY series out there that does this. This is ChampCar's niche, stop trying to ruin ChampCar.

I'm just making suggestions in relevant threads. Feel free not to read those threads and/or posts if they offend or threaten you so much.

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1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

Basically you want class racing, not overall?    If so, it's pretty much unacceptable, work from another angle.

 In every series I've been in, only the top 10-15% teams race for the win, the rest pay for the track. If you guys want to keep "racing for the win", you'd better figure out how to attract the rest of the field.

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6 hours ago, mender said:

 In every series I've been in, only the top 10-15% teams race for the win, the rest pay for the track. If you guys want to keep "racing for the win", you'd better figure out how to attract the rest of the field.

 

That's easy:  come out to race.  Honestly, every time I put someone new in the car they get out smiling ear-to-ear and exclaim it was the most fun they had in a car in years, or ever.  We have yet to be in the top 15 (at least in this series thus far) and the vast majority of our drivers have years, if not decades, of driving experience.  Filling the field isn't something I see as a major issue in this series.  Winning is high on my list now, and its why I've taken the last few years to rebuild and dial-in the car.  Mostly because I want to make sure the fun lasts more than the first 1/2 of the race (so I can get a second stint), but also "to finish first, you must first finish".   I don't think anything (other than a broken car on race day) can distract from the shear fun of dicing it up with 60+ other cars for 2hrs at a time....regardless if you're racing for 3rd or 33rd.

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From my (albeit citrus tainted) view, a few teams/persons hold sway over the rules/judgments. They get things adjusted to help themselves, and hurt there major competitors.

 

I willn't put names to this, most of us are out to have fun, and help each other as needed.

 

I know I've fed most of you, and wrenched on a few cars, simply because ours didn't need anything. Some of you have helped with our car (Nelson 24hrs in the mini).

 

Those in charge just need to set the rules, and stop letting "people" push them around all the time.

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18 hours ago, petawawarace said:

I read the rules one way, 35 points per corner for adjustable coilovers, then was corrected by tech that it’s actually only 25 points.  Built my car around that.  6 months later, Found a tech desk ruling that was actually 35pts, asked for clarification that and they told me they made a mistake telling me only 25. I was pissed, but nothing I can do.  So I went and bought new shocks to get my points totals down.  Now I see they’ve changed it for next year and it will only be 20pts per corner.
 

 

 And this is all in the last 8 months.   

 

Where did you see this?

 

EDIT: Found it nevermind.

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On 8/22/2020 at 9:01 PM, Ron_e said:

Now that I look back at it I would have just built 800+ points EC years ago, developed the car every year and wait for the rules to come to me.  I hate looking at the hacked up changed three times exhaust.  We spent a whole year battling the poor 99-04 front calipers instead of tuning the car, what a waste of time that was and scary to see the pistons crumble and fall out every race.  Numerous other teams spent their years developing their car while we spent much time just changing parts then putting them back on a year or two later, re-tuning then re-tuning again.

 

More:

A arms went from Mustang to TBird to Mustang to TBird, not a double post, 3 swaps

Running with stupid 5 lug front and 4 lug rear rims, couldn't afford the diff swap then we could, now free because "drilling".  Still run 4 lugs on rear because we have the rims

Car claimed as 1988 V8 LX, 1988 V8 GT, 1993 Cobra, 1988 TBird.  Comically it was originally manufactured a 1990 4 cylinder then became the only 1993 blue notch Cobra in existence.

Speed density, chipped speed density, Mega Squirt as computers went from 75 to 0.

We didn't change injectors when they became free, we have not maxed out our 19's yet.

I see someone was just caught for a stroker.  Last year we were advised a stroker would never be measured and to go for it, glad we didn't dump $10,000 into that comment to only tune and run for one year then have to re-tune for the old engine.

Edit: another big one, national parts only, then dealer prices allowed for 2X.

 

It was fun racing but what a waste of time chasing the "stable" rules with constant swapping parts.

 

 

Curious what you think of Rich's proposal? Most of what you listed would not be used to class your car in his proposed ruleset, he concentrates on bigger picture items ( pwr, stock chassis points, etc) vs small items (coolers, suspension arms, etc not being speed items to control for him). 

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From a newbie with lots of other racing experience I’ll offer up what I see as the biggest rules issues and a solution to them. Seeing as everyone else is doing it.  
 

Engine/trans swaps must be evaluated and approved by BOD? TAC individually.  New VPI assigned. This would remove so much complexity in the rule book.  Maybe charge $150 for a new evaluation to eliminate tire kickers?  This would be a bit more work initially, but would reduce as a list of common swaps would be compiled.  

 

Shocks - same point values as current but claim rule of $1000 for all 4 shocks on top 5 cars.  Not including hats, or springs. By anyone in the top 30?

 

Brakes - rotors open (metallic only) , pads open

Calipers open but must be commercially available for under $1000 new (all 4). 

 

Wheels - Claim rule of $1000 for all 4. 

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If you want claim rules go race Lemons. I spend way to much time and money on my car to deal with that bull poop [<-censored word here]. My setup isn't expensive, but it is hard to put together or replace. 

 

The series doesn't need a major overhaul. It needs a few little tweaks and a stable rule set. The few little tweaks are around reducing the costs.  Points for everything; no special exceptions is probably the right direction. That said the stable rule set is really the most important component here. I want to build it once. That will save me money more than any of the little tweaks. 

 

The variety of cars that win suggests that the series is doing a great job of balancing the performance of cars. I certainly concur with your thoughts on rule stability, but I'd strongly suggest you run a few races with the series before making [further] suggestions to rules. I think you'll find the playing field is both balanced and fun. 

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5 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

From a newbie with lots of other racing experience I’ll offer up what I see as the biggest rules issues and a solution to them. Seeing as everyone else is doing it.  
...

Shocks - same point values as current but claim rule of $1000 for all 4 shocks on top 5 cars.  Not including hats, or springs. By anyone in the top 30?

 

Brakes - rotors open (metallic only) , pads open

Calipers open but must be commercially available for under $1000 new (all 4). 

 

Wheels - Claim rule of $1000 for all 4. 

This is all somewhat irrelevant. The BoD voted to remove the 2x rule. Points will be applicable based on number of pistons and whether or not shocks are adjustable. Up to 4 pistons are 0 points. 2-piece rotors are 0 points. Non-adjustable shocks are 0 points. 

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54 minutes ago, Snorman said:

This is all somewhat irrelevant. The BoD voted to remove the 2x rule. Points will be applicable based on number of pistons and whether or not shocks are adjustable. Up to 4 pistons are 0 points. 2-piece rotors are 0 points. Non-adjustable shocks are 0 points. 

The issue that I see is there are huge areas for exploitation with those new rules.  For example I can now run Penske 7500 series single adjustable shocks (over $1000 each) for only 10 points.  That’s craziness.  
 

Or I could run Alcon 4 piston calipers that are over $1000 each as well.  

Wheels now also can get stupid expensive for lightweight ones.  
 

You can argue that there’s not much of an advantage, but there is. The shocks especially.  
 

I don’t like claim rules for things that take effort or pride to build. But shocks and wheels are easy to replace. 
 

If something’s not done, I guarantee you’ll have some guys showing up with those parts for sure.  

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1 hour ago, veris said:

If you want claim rules go race Lemons. I spend way to much time and money on my car to deal with that bull poop [<-censored word here]. My setup isn't expensive, but it is hard to put together or replace. 

 

The series doesn't need a major overhaul. It needs a few little tweaks and a stable rule set. The few little tweaks are around reducing the costs.  Points for everything; no special exceptions is probably the right direction. That said the stable rule set is really the most important component here. I want to build it once. That will save me money more than any of the little tweaks. 

 

The variety of cars that win suggests that the series is doing a great job of balancing the performance of cars. I certainly concur with your thoughts on rule stability, but I'd strongly suggest you run a few races with the series before making [further] suggestions to rules. I think you'll find the playing field is both balanced and fun. 

I’ve experienced claim rules lots.  Blanket claims on entire vehicles do not work.  Like you said, you put lots of effort into the build. A lot of that doesn’t make it faster. But shocks and wheels are very easy to replace.  And if the value is set at the proper amount, you should be able to replace your claimed parts with new ones and pocket a bit of cash.  If you are running right to the limit with the value, then you run that risk.  But how else can you control the cost of shocks, wheels or calipers?

 

I do agree the rules are pretty damn good.  The main concern that I have are these new rules coming into effect next year and keeping things stable for a few years. 

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9 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

The issue that I see is there are huge areas for exploitation with those new rules.  For example I can now run Penske 7500 series single adjustable shocks (over $1000 each) for only 10 points.  That’s craziness.  
 

Or I could run Alcon 4 piston calipers that are over $1000 each as well.  

Wheels now also can get stupid expensive for lightweight ones.  
 

You can argue that there’s not much of an advantage, but there is. The shocks especially.  
 

I don’t like claim rules for things that take effort or pride to build. But shocks and wheels are easy to replace. 
 

If something’s not done, I guarantee you’ll have some guys showing up with those parts for sure.  

We'll see how it's written into the BCCR, but there was no discussion of dollar value caps on those items, so I guess we'll know in about a week. 

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On 8/21/2020 at 11:31 PM, petawawarace said:

As a new Champcar team I am very frustrated by the constant rule changes and “interpretations”. The rules and points allowed for our car have changed 4 times in the last 8 months since we started building the car.  The rules are insanely complicated and convoluted.  There has got to be a way to keep things simple.  
 

Champcar has great numbers at most tracks, so it’s obviously working.  Stop screwing with it.

Only way to do that would be rolling back to the old points standards or make it based on actual cost.  When we built our car to race in the 2015 season it was almost 500 points. Now we have more go fast stuff and even with intake swap we have 100 points to burn up. 

 

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On 8/23/2020 at 11:50 PM, enginerd said:

QFT

 

If you want class racing, go try WRL / AER / LDRL / Lemons. If you want to race for overall against the entire field of various sizes, shapes, and years of BMWs, miatas, hondas, nissans, Mustangs, etc. then ChampCar is THE ONLY series out there that does this. This is ChampCar's niche, stop trying to ruin ChampCar.

??? Champ has classes if not why do I have a D on my door? So does Lemons and in BOTH everybody can compete for the overall win.  I like both leagues, but Lemons is significantly cheaper to compete in. Pretty sure we'll be bumped to EC (in Lemons) unless we want swap some parts off. 

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6 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

??? Champ has classes if not why do I have a D on my door? So does Lemons and in BOTH everybody can compete for the overall win.  I like both leagues, but Lemons is significantly cheaper to compete in. Pretty sure we'll be bumped to EC (in Lemons) unless we want swap some parts off. 

what makes lemons cheaper?

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On 8/23/2020 at 10:50 PM, enginerd said:

QFT

 

If you want class racing, go try WRL / AER / LDRL / Lemons. If you want to race for overall against the entire field of various sizes, shapes, and years of BMWs, miatas, hondas, nissans, Mustangs and Mercedes, etc. then ChampCar is THE ONLY series out there that does this. This is ChampCar's niche, stop trying to ruin ChampCar.

 

 

FIFY

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37 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

??? Champ has classes if not why do I have a D on my door? So does Lemons and in BOTH everybody can compete for the overall win.  I like both leagues, but Lemons is significantly cheaper to compete in. Pretty sure we'll be bumped to EC (in Lemons) unless we want swap some parts off. 

Examples of performance based classing systems: 

IMSA where a GTD won’t beat all the GTLM cars, and GTLM won’t beat a prototype. Sure, you can “compete” for a win against a Prototype with a GTD, but it won’t happen barring some fluke.
Lemons they have 3 classes (???) loosely defined (???) as “in it to win it”, “kinda racey”, and “would take a miracle to finish”. Sure you are “competing” for the win if you are in the worst class, but it’s very unlikely to happen.

 

These classes very strongly predict finishing position in a race.

 

The ChampCar “classes” do not predict finishing position in a race. You can’t walk up to a car before a race and say “oh look, it is X class, they won’t be on the top step of the podium”. That is why ChampCar is not class racing even if you have a D on your car and I have a B. The “classes” divide up the field into roughly similar types of cars, they do not divide up the field into groups that will predict finishing position. 

Edited by enginerd
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16 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Examples of performance based classing systems: 

IMSA where a GTD won’t beat all the GTLM cars, and GTLM won’t beat a prototype. Sure, you can “compete” for a win against a Prototype with a GTD, but it won’t happen barring some fluke.
Lemons they have 3 classes (???) loosely defined (???) as “in it to win it”, “kinda racey”, and “would take a miracle to finish”. Sure you are “competing” for the win if you are in the worst class, but it’s very unlikely to happen.

 

These classes very strongly predict finishing position in a race.

 

The ChampCar “classes” do not predict finishing position in a race. You can’t walk up to a car before a race and say “oh look, it is X class, they won’t be on the top step of the podium”. That is why ChampCar is not class racing even if you have a D on your car and I have a B. The “classes” divide up the field into roughly similar types of cars, they do not divide up the field into groups that will predict finishing position. 

I do not think the current classes have one person racing another most of the time based on displacement in most cases.  When an A class car, like Rbanks honda goes up against the Riley Camaro or Corvette, A vs D and can be similar in speed then it shows how it does not work. Also, a race prepped riley D class car or well prepared crowd control mustang is a different class than a stock mustang or camaor, but all should be able to battle. An E30 b class vs a  C class Toyota that are the same points and speed shows again how points to equal speed and I think should be classes. Both cars are very close to 500 points though so that points do equal speed. The guy who has a stock miata racing against Rbanks CRX, both A class cars, but not.

 

I do think that classes based on points is something new and some people will not want change, I get that. I do also think that after a few races and we see the battle in the mid field for the two classes not going for the overall win we will say, yes it does work and it is much better. You will always have the few that grumble and say it was better in the days past, we should not have classes, we should not have swaps, we should have stock cars, ect, but those days have passed.

 

I think we can try to the new classes out based on points and see how it goes and stay positive and look at how it can attack new teams and make the racing better for all racers. It will not affect us at the pointy end, but can have battles throughout that can be much better.

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2 hours ago, Black Magic said:

 

Curious what you think of Rich's proposal? Most of what you listed would not be used to class your car in his proposed ruleset, he concentrates on bigger picture items ( pwr, stock chassis points, etc) vs small items (coolers, suspension arms, etc not being speed items to control for him). 

 

I don't think you or anyone else wants to hear my thoughts on more rule changes meaning more parts like another fuel cell.  Go back and read my posts on the first page keeping two things in mind:

1. Except for the "repurposed free/points/free" flip that happened too quick we were impacted by every one of those whims with changing parts.  Although when the repurposed flip happened I immediately e-mailed about our home-made deep sump oil pan as I think that would be +75 at the time instead of +3 for materials.

2. We used to do four races per year since 2011 so we had to constantly react to stay under 500 as multiple values went up and down like a garage door.  Seriously, five different valuations for some parts and swings from -75 to +100 per part.

 

Pretty much my only remaining concern is finding a way to use up the race credit dollars from when we had to cancel our last race with ChampCar.

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1 hour ago, petawawarace said:

I’ve experienced claim rules lots.  Blanket claims on entire vehicles do not work.  Like you said, you put lots of effort into the build. A lot of that doesn’t make it faster. But shocks and wheels are very easy to replace.  And if the value is set at the proper amount, you should be able to replace your claimed parts with new ones and pocket a bit of cash.  If you are running right to the limit with the value, then you run that risk.  But how else can you control the cost of shocks, wheels or calipers?

 

I do agree the rules are pretty damn good.  The main concern that I have are these new rules coming into effect next year and keeping things stable for a few years. 

Shocks and wheels are two components of my build that are not easily replaced. I run discontinued versions of both those. This isn't uncommon as lots of folks run odd ball vehicles without great support. It is one of the interesting parts of Champcar. 

 

That ignores the fact that asking me to remove my shocks and wheels at the track after a race is assine. Just from a logistical point it isn't workable. 

 

There are lots of ways to control costs. Limiting wheels and shocks to a dollar figure per corner would be a better option than claim rules. 250 usd per corner for either seems like a reasonable number to me. I spend a fraction of that, but if you need 1 inflexible rule it needs to be reasonably large. Again though this isn't a real problem. Outside Miata's I'm not aware of folks running penski shocks and they need as much help as they can get. ;)

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51 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I do not think the current classes have one person racing another most of the time based on displacement in most cases.  When an A class car, like Rbanks honda goes up against the Riley Camaro or Corvette, A vs D and can be similar in speed then it shows how it does not work. Also, a race prepped riley D class car or well prepared crowd control mustang is a different class than a stock mustang or camaor, but all should be able to battle. An E30 b class vs a  C class Toyota that are the same points and speed shows again how points to equal speed and I think should be classes. Both cars are very close to 500 points though so that points do equal speed. The guy who has a stock miata racing against Rbanks CRX, both A class cars, but not.

That’s because they aren’t performance classes!! Just because you are A doesn’t mean you will be competitive with A. It just means that you are in a small engine car, probably a Honda or miata.

 

It sounds like you want the field broken up into groups based on actual performance, not an entire field in the same group because they have equal performance potential. And to that, I will quote @wvumtnbkr:

 

AER and LDRL bracket racing are that way —->

Edited by enginerd
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1 minute ago, enginerd said:

That’s because they aren’t performance classes!! Just because you are A doesn’t mean you will be competitive with A. It just means that you are in a small engine car, probably a Honda or miata.

 

It sounds like you want the field broken up into groups based on actual performance, not an entire field in the same group because they have equal performance potential. And to that, I will quote @wvumtnbkr:

 

WRL is that way —->

They currently are not performance classes and just displacement classes, but we have a points based rulebook that is points based on performance, shouldn't we have classes that reflect our rulebook? So if we have classes based on points you jump to WRL and their power to weight model? That is a huge leap.

 

Classes would be this. C class - top class, 50-75% of the field going for the overall win and prizes and prize value. In the remaining field is based on points and only going for the class win trophy for that class. Basically how it is now, it is not that different, just more people going for the overall win with similar speed cars based on points.

 

I think if we look at the big picture and not the exceptions we will see it is a much better system. We can currently pull out exceptions (Riley and Crowd Control D class cars killing stock D class cars, An A class S2000 vs an old CIVIC).

 

 

Good ideas and thoughts I see though.

C-451-600 points

B-401-450

A-0-400 (limited prep cars - list of approved mods allowed and if you do certain items you go to B class)

 

I go back and forth on swap cars and internal engine mod cars being automatically in C class and that is from data when I saw who did well with what combinations.

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Over 500 points should be laps or ec.

 

If the class structure becomes 600points max no penalty then I have 100 points to play with.  Lord help you...

 

Speed creep would be silly.

 

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