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Stop changing the rules


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As a new Champcar team I am very frustrated by the constant rule changes and “interpretations”. The rules and points allowed for our car have changed 4 times in the last 8 months since we started buil

Rule changes for written or unwritten rules?  Plenty of examples of both.   Power steering cooler - 0, 5, 10, 20, then 0, but only if the car came with a cooler stock was it 20 points for no

From my (albeit citrus tainted) view, a few teams/persons hold sway over the rules/judgments. They get things adjusted to help themselves, and hurt there major competitors.   I willn't put n

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3 hours ago, enginerd said:

Examples of performance based classing systems: 

IMSA where a GTD won’t beat all the GTLM cars, and GTLM won’t beat a prototype. Sure, you can “compete” for a win against a Prototype with a GTD, but it won’t happen barring some fluke.
Lemons they have 3 classes (???) loosely defined (???) as “in it to win it”, “kinda racey”, and “would take a miracle to finish”. Sure you are “competing” for the win if you are in the worst class, but it’s very unlikely to happen.

 

These classes very strongly predict finishing position in a race.

 

The ChampCar “classes” do not predict finishing position in a race. You can’t walk up to a car before a race and say “oh look, it is X class, they won’t be on the top step of the podium”. That is why ChampCar is not class racing even if you have a D on your car and I have a B. The “classes” divide up the field into roughly similar types of cars, they do not divide up the field into groups that will predict finishing position. 

yes but Champ "classes" cars...and all classes can win. Am I missing something? 

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4 hours ago, turbogrill said:

what makes lemons cheaper?

ummm because the check actual costs? Meaning show up with a set of Bilstein's and place. Or high $$ suspension upgrades.  Heck you'd get hit for the $300 wing everybody is buying. Not knocking either league, they are just different. Lemons is more concerned about costs then Champcar is.  

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On 8/24/2020 at 1:22 AM, mender said:

 In every series I've been in, only the top 10-15% teams race for the win, the rest pay for the track. If you guys want to keep "racing for the win", you'd better figure out how to attract the rest of the field.

We just go to have fun and beat on our car.... 

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1 hour ago, TiredBirds said:

yes but Champ "classes" cars...and all classes can win. Am I missing something? 

Champ "classes" aren't performance-based predictive classes, which is exactly why all classes can win.

 

All suggestions that I have seen for changes to the classes would make them performance based, where one class would be heavily favored to win compared to another. Not all classes could win.

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15 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Good ideas and thoughts I see though.

C-451-600 points

B-401-450

A-0-400 (limited prep cars - list of approved mods allowed and if you do certain items you go to B class)

 

I go back and forth on swap cars and internal engine mod cars being automatically in C class and that is from data when I saw who did well with what combinations.

 

One of the current classes needs to end at 500 points if champcar did something like this. Current limit is 500 so you dont put 500 in the middle..thats just encouraging more people to spend more money. And in my opinion 500 should be the max allowed.

 

Edited by Gkuhn41
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15 minutes ago, Gkuhn41 said:

 

One of the current classes needs to end at 500 points if champcar did something like this. Current limit is 500 so you dont put 500 in the middle..thats just encouraging more people to spend more money. And in my opinion 500 should be the max allowed.

 

It keeps the same system we have now basically. Anything above 500 gets laps so it does not change it. Just above 600 is EC or if someone just wants to enter EC as they do not feel like deal with the rules.

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2 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

It keeps the same system we have now basically. Anything above 500 gets laps so it does not change it. Just above 600 is EC or if someone just wants to enter EC as they do not feel like deal with the rules.

The way you listed it you have a class split at 450, so my 490pt car to be competitive will need to have things taken off or i will need to add to 600. We all know if there are points there people will build to the points allowed. Im just saying put the split @ 500 would only make sense. 

 

Limit it to 500 points or speed creep will be out of control especially @ 600.

 

Give an SC300, honda S2000 100 points to play with, Hell last year at road america we tested a 350Z that would be a 595 point build and on my 8th lap ever in the car i turned a 2:42.XX running the bend.

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22 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

they do not feel like deal with the rules.

 

 

Not looking for change, EC is fine as is, but with no green font, I have a question, sorry its off topic.

 

Is there any other series that allows those that do not want to "do" the rules?

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13 hours ago, enginerd said:

Champ "classes" aren't performance-based predictive classes, which is exactly why all classes can win.

 

All suggestions that I have seen for changes to the classes would make them performance based, where one class would be heavily favored to win compared to another. Not all classes could win.

I get that, but why assign an letter designation to the car? In any event this is going to continue as the points keep dropping. Those with money will have better stuff and go faster.  I mean a $600 oil pan is now 25 points.  

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2 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

 

 

Not looking for change, EC is fine as is, but with no green font, I have a question, sorry its off topic.

 

Is there any other series that allows those that do not want to "do" the rules?

As stated "SCCA" - but then they just keep adding classes to appease those people.  The "everyone gets a class / trophy" philosophy.  Or, any car is competitive if it gets its own class.

Edited by craig71188
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15 hours ago, enginerd said:

Champ "classes" aren't performance-based predictive classes, which is exactly why all classes can win.

 

All suggestions that I have seen for changes to the classes would make them performance based, where one class would be heavily favored to win compared to another. Not all classes could win.

If all that is desired is random classes that have little or no semblance to performance levels, there are a few choices:

1. Displacement 

2. Number of cylinders

3. Country or continent of origin (North American, Asian, European)

4. Decade of production ('80s, '90s, etc)

5. Number of doors

6. Colour

7. Wheel size

8. Average age of the drivers

 

And so on.

 

I find it interesting that rules that were made for a particular purpose and time have somehow gained sacred status.

 

Reminds me of the anecdote of some newb race official being told at a race to make sure no one parked in a particular spot, and within a couple of years there would be a committee with their own set of rules, uniforms and secret initiation rites to "qualify" for the special duties required to ensure the inviolability of that now enshrined piece of real estate.

 

Edited by mender
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15 minutes ago, mender said:

If all that is desired is random classes that have little or no semblance to performance levels, there are a few choices:

1. Displacement 

2. Number of cylinders

3. Country or continent of origin (North American, Asian, European)

4. Decade of production ('80s, '90s, etc)

5. Number of doors

6. Colour

7. Wheel size

8. Average age of the drivers

Correct. I personally have no objection to any of these classing ideas to replace the current (other than ‘do you have a compelling reason to switch?’) but none of the serious proposals have offered them up as suggestions. 

Edited by enginerd
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I think there is some misunderstanding regarding the classes above 500 pts.

 

Those cars would still be given penalty laps above 500.  They would just be eligible for the class win (and the overall IF they make up their penalty laps).

 

As it is in the rules, you can have a legal 600 pt champcar and fight for the overall IF you can make up your 10 laps.

 

No difference to the overall picture.  Just something for those above 500 pts to fight for.

 

I kinda like it.

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17 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

Why are we talking about claim anything?!? There is no claim rule, Never will be. Lemons doesn’t even want to invoke their claim rule I think it’s been used twice, I could be wrong it could be only once… What the heck people?

A few months ago, somebody proposed a "claimer's rule" that was about the dumbest thing I'd ever heard. People would literally be showing up at races just to buy winning cars, myself included. Talk about ending a series in the shortest period of time possible...

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10 minutes ago, Snorman said:

A few months ago, somebody proposed a "claimer's rule" that was about the dumbest thing I'd ever heard. People would literally be showing up at races just to buy winning cars, myself included. Talk about ending a series in the shortest period of time possible...

I don't like claim rules, they seem better suited for one make one size circle track engines,  but your scenario is easily fixed by only allowing say a top 10 finisher to claim a car that finished in the top 3.

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12 minutes ago, Snorman said:

A few months ago, somebody proposed a "claimer's rule" that was about the dumbest thing I'd ever heard. People would literally be showing up at races just to buy winning cars, myself included. Talk about ending a series in the shortest period of time possible...

It was just an idea to easily limit spending on a few items that could very easily get out of control.  Now that the 2x rule is gone, there will not be any way to limit that. Unless they introduce a cost cap on the units, but that re-introduces the whole shopping the internet for cheapest prices etc.   Maybe they will include something when the new rules are released.  I would also strongly disagree with claiming an entire car. there are so many issues with that.  Certain individual pieces like shocks are much easier to deal with.

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3 minutes ago, morganf said:

I don't like claim rules, they seem better suited for one make one size circle track engines,  but your scenario is easily fixed by only allowing say a top 10 finisher to claim a car that finished in the top 3.

This statement literally contradicts itself. 

  • "better suited for one make one size"
  • But we can adjust it so only the top 10 finishers can do it. 

 

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Just now, petawawarace said:

It was just an idea to easily limit spending on a few items that could very easily get out of control.  Now that the 2x rule is gone, there will not be any way to limit that. Unless they introduce a cost cap on the units, but that re-introduces the whole shopping the internet for cheapest prices etc.   Maybe they will include something when the new rules are released.  I would also strongly disagree with claiming an entire car. there are so many issues with that.  Certain individual pieces like shocks are much easier to deal with.

No...I get your idea, even though I don't agree. But somebody proposed a full-on claimer's rule a few months ago. Win a race, and somebody can buy your entire car for $10,000. So you get to drive home with a trophy and then start building a new car that somebody can claim the next time you win a race, lol. 

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38 minutes ago, Snorman said:

No...I get your idea, even though I don't agree. But somebody proposed a full-on claimer's rule a few months ago. Win a race, and somebody can buy your entire car for $10,000. So you get to drive home with a trophy and then start building a new car that somebody can claim the next time you win a race, lol. 

Any series with a claimer rule is not for me. The money is fine, what about the 1,000 weekend hours I put into building that car for the last year or two? So I have a year of races scheduled and then have to cancel all of them and start over again. Then I get to build another car, take a year or two of my weekends and extra time, and then have it taken away again. Heck no.

 

What you will have is no one showing up to race and if anyone ever gets claimed they do not come back. Simply put it would be the death of the series.

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5 hours ago, Gkuhn41 said:

The way you listed it you have a class split at 450, so my 490pt car to be competitive will need to have things taken off or i will need to add to 600. We all know if there are points there people will build to the points allowed. Im just saying put the split @ 500 would only make sense. 

 

Limit it to 500 points or speed creep will be out of control especially @ 600.

 

Give an SC300, honda S2000 100 points to play with, Hell last year at road america we tested a 350Z that would be a 595 point build and on my 8th lap ever in the car i turned a 2:42.XX running the bend.

Here stated another way. A car with 450 to 500 points is class C. Your 490 point car stays the same. You stay in class C and race for the overall win. If you add items, like you can now, and go over 500 points you get laps for each 10 points above, same as now.

 

I put 450-600 is class C with anything over 500 you get laps. It is just like it is today. Anything over 600 it automatically in EC. Example, someone with a 700 point car is not going to make up 20 laps so EC. That is how it is today.

 

The 350z would get 10 laps in your example above.

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17 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

450-600

@MR2 Biohazard I fear that once a line is drawn, in this case 600pts, even with the same penalty's, some folks will take it a bit literally and go build for 600 pts

 

I know, sounds crazy but that is exactly what happened to EC, it existed, therefore they came. Any way you could avoid saying 600 and keep everything tuned to 500?

 

Again, I get it, there are no changes to the base series or penalty, just different classing.

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