Pre-Race Warm-Up Session

[Snorman 2,891]

Just now, Slugworks Paul said:

... (not a race (basically a race))...

[DEE DEE 817]

Here's a thought.  Most tracks always have other groups renting the track before a ChampCar event.  Why not just enter that event?

[LuckyKid 906]

5 minutes ago, DEE DEE said:

Here's a thought.  Most tracks always have other groups renting the track before a ChampCar event.  Why not just enter that event?

So its it just understood then that CCES is really setup to get track day people into wheel to wheel?  If that is the case, shouldn't there be more integration/partnerships with these track day places?  Should the mission of ChampCar change to be more clear about that?

[Burningham 2,197]

9 minutes ago, DEE DEE said:

Here's a thought.  Most tracks always have other groups renting the track before a ChampCar event.  Why not just enter that event?

 

Time?  Money?  Bill Riley has the track rented and he doesn't offer it up to anyone else? 

 

Just a few reasons.  But I think that should be strongly encouraged if available.

[DEE DEE 817]

2 minutes ago, Burningham said:

 

Time?  Money?  Bill Riley has the track rented and he doesn't offer it up to anyone else? 

 

Just a few reasons.  But I think that should be strongly encouraged if available.

So your point about Bill is?  I guess that's his business .  I can think of a few reasons.  You forgot to mention that Rahal rented the track at VIR on Friday also one year and did not invite anyone else.  

[Burningham 2,197]

1 minute ago, DEE DEE said:

So your point about Bill is?  I guess that's his business .  I can think of a few reasons.  You forgot to mention that Rahal rented the track at VIR on Friday also one year and did not invite anyone else.  

 

Geeze, why do I always have to say chill out to you.   I was kidding.  Bill is good for the series, obviously it's his business to do what he wants to.

[Team Infiniti 15,387]

Partnering up with the various organizations that run track days sounds great, I would love if that could happen, but it’s kind of like herding cats as each track seems to have a different Idea about how things work And how much their services/private rentals should cost each driver or car

 

[enginerd 6,584]

51 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

So its it just understood then that CCES is really setup to get track day people into wheel to wheel?  If that is the case, shouldn't there be more integration/partnerships with these track day places?  Should the mission of ChampCar change to be more clear about that?

How many other series allow people with zero track experience ever to get in a race car and race? The message touted on ChampCar live is low barrier to entry, get some gear and go race! They even talk about renter teams and getting involved through volunteering. Same message on the website, want to race? Go race!

 

What more do you want?

Without any real knowledge of the subject, I foresee partnerships with track day orgs as being high on effort / time input for ChampCar staff, and low on actual new teams entering because of it. Perhaps do some advertising / outreach at these events at most. 

[Snorman 2,891]

30 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Partnering up with the various organizations that run track days sounds great, I would love if that could happen, but it’s kind of like herding cats as each track seems to have a different Idea about how things work And how much their services/private rentals should cost each driver or car

 

The other problem with groups like Chin Track Days is they are very careful about how they group and assess drivers. They won't want to put their name on an event when they can't control who is driving in it. And they aren't going to want to have a Chin Track Days Open Track Event with reckless drivers out there from CCES (not saying there would be, but that is what they may assume if they have no control over who is out there). 

[Bill Strong 7,219]

Do you really want me side by side with those slow Vipers? Yellow paint on your black Viper doors? 

[LuckyKid 906]

22 minutes ago, enginerd said:

How many other series allow people with zero track experience ever to get in a race car and race? The message touted on ChampCar live is low barrier to entry, get some gear and go race! They even talk about renter teams and getting involved through volunteering. Same message on the website, want to race? Go race!

 

What more do you want?

 

I am suggesting a whole product around the value proposition of getting regular people into wheel to wheel racing.  It can be as simple as getting a car, gear, and racing, but its also not that simple in a lot of cases as pointed out here.  Some track time, autocross, or the like helps smooth the ramp considerably.  As seen here a lot of people had experience racing in other series first like circle track.

 

I've instructed a lot of lap days and even with point-by passing newbs have a death grip on the wheel and its high stress.  Imagine jumping cold in to wheel to wheel.  The barrier to entry is getting over that fear and gaining confidence.  

My previous topic mentioned a non-required school, that would benefit teams that rent (more revenue) and also help smooth the ramp.  This was for my spouse to try racing.  Reception to that seemed frosty and again went to "do a lap day".  

If the pathway to CCES is lap days then I think its a strategic mistake not to incorporate this more clearly.  

I do like the mentor program, volunteering, rental programs, tech talks, etc, but there is nothing wrong with considering new options, especially if it addresses an issue that is key to the value proposition.

[tommytipover 637]

I wonder if CCES has the buying power or the interest to purchase track days not associated with race weekends. It could bookend with a type of mentoring program. Have a locally based "mentor" organize the track day.

[Snorman 2,891]

5 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

I am suggesting a whole product around the value proposition of getting regular people into wheel to wheel racing.  It can be as simple as getting a car, gear, and racing, but its also not that simple in a lot of cases as pointed out here.  Some track time, autocross, or the like helps smooth the ramp considerably.  As seen here a lot of people had experience racing in other series first like circle track.

 

I've instructed a lot of lap days and even with point-by passing newbs have a death grip on the wheel and its high stress.  Imagine jumping cold in to wheel to wheel.  The barrier to entry is getting over that fear and gaining confidence.  

My previous topic mentioned a non-required school, that would benefit teams that rent (more revenue) and also help smooth the ramp.  This was for my spouse to try racing.  Reception to that seemed frosty and again went to "do a lap day".  

If the pathway to CCES is lap days then I think its a strategic mistake not to incorporate this more clearly.  

I do like the mentor program, volunteering, rental programs, tech talks, etc, but there is nothing wrong with considering new options, especially if it addresses an issue that is key to the value proposition.

You may not be recognizing that there isn't a huge desire on the part of many track day participants to race w2w. My opinion is that the majority of "regular people" at track days don't really want to race w2w. We have a number of renters, a few of them instructors and most of them who do track days. They aren't overwhelmingly lighting up our phone lines looking for seats. 

[enginerd 6,584]

6 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Imagine jumping cold in to wheel to wheel.  The barrier to entry is getting over that fear and gaining confidence.  

No need to imagine, I did it. 2013 at arrive and drive in a friends car at CMS. Never drove on a track before. Lasted about 5 laps before pitting. Went back out a couple hours later and did close to an hour. Then 2014, first race with my own car we had a full test day Friday and that worked out well. 

[LuckyKid 906]

1 minute ago, Snorman said:

You may not be recognizing that there isn't a huge desire on the part of many track day participants to race w2w. My opinion is that the majority of "regular people" at track days don't really want to race w2w. We have a number of renters, a few of them instructors and most of them who do track days. They aren't overwhelmingly lighting up our phone lines looking for seats. 

Sure, but the lap day seems like the go-to option for getting cold drivers into CCES.  Its a part of the product even if its not a source for the greater funnel of CCES participants. 

 

[Snorman 2,891]

12 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Sure, but the lap day seems like the go-to option for getting cold drivers into CCES.  Its a part of the product even if its not a source for the greater funnel of CCES participants. 

 

Is there currently a shortage of drivers in the series? I honestly don't know. I personally think the reports of Champcar's death are greatly exaggerated. 

[Snorman 2,891]

Here's what I do think...

Based on what's happened over the last six months, and the uncertainty of that impact on the future, I don't think the series is going to do anything that's going to have a negative financial impact. I also don't think it's going to "rock the boat" or adopt any of the other...uhh..."creative" ideas (my opinion only) that I've seen over the last several weeks that may even possibly have a negative impact on participation. I think people that want to push their agendas, whether it be to turn this into a spec-type series, or completely revamp the points or classing system or upend the rules entirely should just chill out. 
It looks like some races this fall are pulling in some good numbers (Road America, PBIR, etc.). Let the series get some momentum back and next year we can revisit some of this stuff. 

Again, my opinion only...

[LuckyKid 906]

11 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Is there currently a shortage of drivers in the series? I honestly don't know. I personally think the reports of Champcar's death are greatly exaggerated. 

Maybe I am doing it wrong, but with all of my businesses we've continuously pushed forward to achieve our vision and mission through strategic objectives.  When we achieve our sub-goals then sometimes we revise or vision and mission, of if the market changes, but the drive is always to achieve that central goal.  I assume CCES is doing the same thing seeing as how it has gotten better in the two short years I've been with the group and there have been multiple projects like this implemented by CCES.  
 

Regardless of if CCES is growing or dying the process of progress should continue. 

Edited September 2, 2020 by LuckyKid

[Snorman 2,891]

7 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Maybe I am doing it wrong, but with all of my businesses we've continuously pushed forward to achieve our vision and mission through strategic objectives.  When we achieve our sub-goals then sometimes we revise or vision and mission, of if the market changes, but the drive is always to achieve that central goal.  I assume CCES is doing the same thing seeing as how it has gotten better in the two short years I've been with the group and there have been multiple projects like this implemented by CCES.  
 

Regardless of if CCES is growing or dying the process of progress should continue. 

I'm not saying the series shouldn't market or try to grow. It's the method by which that happens that is the question. And the timing of these methods, particularly now. 

 

[Slugworks Paul 1,790]

2 hours ago, DEE DEE said:

Here's a thought.  Most tracks always have other groups renting the track before a ChampCar event.  Why not just enter that event?

My 2 cents.. I usually participate in any track day I can before the race, however:
1. Sometimes the formats suck. I hate 20 minute run groups as that is not helpful or reflective of the racing we do and not a very rigorous test of the car.
2. Sometimes the cost structure REALLY sucks for other orgs, regarding endurance teams - they often want a full entrance fee per participant, which would often add up to an extra $1500+ cost for the weekend, which is a tough pill to swallow. Sometimes they wise up and offer us a better deal, knowing we're splitting the seat time. This happened at Sebring - the event director ended up reducing the price for champcar teams a week or two before the event.
3. Sometimes they don't exist, or are closed events we can't enter.

Champcar sponsoring their own test day event would solve all the above issues and allow us to have better control of the test events. Plus if we do it right, maybe more revenue for champcar?

Edited September 2, 2020 by Slugworks Paul

[cowboys647 182]

4/5 drivers at our first race were extremely green and hadn't even driven the car prior to arriving at the Road Atlanta test day. We brought a 1.6 spec miata and were absolutely amazed at the closing speeds there so it was extremely stressful and difficult to focus on learning the track/car when we were constantly looking in the mirror.

 

Also, we had planned for my father to race with us. He had no experience with driving a car on a track and had only done a couple autocrosses. He was extremely intimidated by all of the faster cars and learning the new track. He also didn't have a comfortable knowledge of the flags and when the session ended he didn't know where the pit in road was so he kept lapping as the only car out there. After that practice session he told me that he wasn't going to drive in the race because he didn't want to risk the car and he just wasn't quite ready.

 

Because of this experience I think a non-required driver school during a test day would be awesome. Stop the open lapping for an hour and just let the noobs get on the track. Maybe a pace car runs 5 laps then gets off. To do this CCES would have to run their test days though.

 

For the tracks that won't let there be a test day, maybe put a pace car out at 80% pace and do a "No Passing" 10-15 minute session before the race.

 

I think that there should be some form of driver entry into CCES that helps smooth the transition. Hell, an iracing rig at the track that new drivers can get on and learn the track would be great and isn't a huge expense. You could limit everyone to 15 minutes and this way new drivers could practice the night before or the day of the race.

[DEE DEE 817]

7 hours ago, Burningham said:

 

Geeze, why do I always have to say chill out to you.   I was kidding.  Bill is good for the series, obviously it's his business to do what he wants to.

I was kidding also.   You only scolded me 1 other time I felt like I was in military school again.  Yes Bill & his team is good for the series as were others that don't run with ChampCar anymore.

[Team Infiniti 15,387]

3 hours ago, cowboys647 said:

Road Atlanta

I couldn’t imagine making that place the very first experience, wow, thank goodness there was a practice day!

[CBraden 248]

On 9/2/2020 at 3:29 PM, cowboys647 said:

4/5 drivers at our first race were extremely green and hadn't even driven the car prior to arriving at the Road Atlanta test day. We brought a 1.6 spec miata and were absolutely amazed at the closing speeds there so it was extremely stressful and difficult to focus on learning the track/car when we were constantly looking in the mirror.

 

Also, we had planned for my father to race with us. He had no experience with driving a car on a track and had only done a couple autocrosses. He was extremely intimidated by all of the faster cars and learning the new track. He also didn't have a comfortable knowledge of the flags and when the session ended he didn't know where the pit in road was so he kept lapping as the only car out there. After that practice session he told me that he wasn't going to drive in the race because he didn't want to risk the car and he just wasn't quite ready.

 

Because of this experience I think a non-required driver school during a test day would be awesome. Stop the open lapping for an hour and just let the noobs get on the track. Maybe a pace car runs 5 laps then gets off. To do this CCES would have to run their test days though.

 

For the tracks that won't let there be a test day, maybe put a pace car out at 80% pace and do a "No Passing" 10-15 minute session before the race.

 

I think that there should be some form of driver entry into CCES that helps smooth the transition. Hell, an iracing rig at the track that new drivers can get on and learn the track would be great and isn't a huge expense. You could limit everyone to 15 minutes and this way new drivers could practice the night before or the day of the race.

 

I don't want to scare away new teams, but in my opinion, _no_way_never_ should drivers who have not done at least HPDE in solo groups be racing door to door. I am not trying to run people away from the series... in fact I think this may help to avoid some people getting too scared to come back. 

 

It is a blast, but not something one should do without serious consideration and more than a little preparation.

 

 

[BigMoneyWasters 480]

I like the idea of a magnetic yellow sticker to signify any driver with less than 5 races worth of experience. Practice days are really race days. There are plenty of ways to get practice without disrupting race days.