Jump to content

Good Bad and Ugly Discussion.


Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said:


Perhaps it would be relevant for @Final Turn Motorsports to share his story to address your points.
 

My story.  I'm not one for protesting.  Have never done it. I also understand that post race tech, whether protested by a team or discovered by tech, illegal is illegal.  When I am asked to withdraw my protest and walk away...  I was pissed. I was also told by an official, "Mike Chisek and one of the tech guys teched the car at their shop. If Champcar made a mistake then they can't penalize the team for it." I replied back, "so it is ok to penalize the rest of the field for your mistake?" No reply was given.

 

I also told tech, during our discussion, that there were more than 8 attachment points to the chassis from the cage. (And I'm sorry, a bolt-in cage is still a cage, not a strut tower brace) I told them about 4 bars coming through the firewall from the cage.  

 

I don't know enough about Corvetters to go to mechanicals of what's stock or not. Not a fan of vettes.  

 

So the tech offical walks over to GBU and looks at exactly what I said. He then walked back to me and said nothing. And now I'm hot.  So I made the best of the situation and walked away. 

 

One of my drivers was shaking his head, and then one of the officials asked what's up.  My driver said "you made the wrong decision." The official then replies with "I am only doing what I was told by higher ups."  

 

So after it is all done, nothing I can do.  I start putting wheels on my car.  One of the tech officials then comes to me and pulls me aside. "You ever heard the term, don't throw stones in a glass house?" I replied back to him, "what is glass about my car that I am throwing stones at?"

 

He says "your fuel cell is illegal." "It is stock" i replied.  He said my fill hose is not legal.  I openly pointed out all the rules that make it legal and even called Dana Morrison about it after Daytona. And he agreed it met every aspect of the rules. The tech officials then replies with, "we will see about that. I write the rules and you are not gonna run that anymore." I said, "Fine. I have till January 1 to address it then. Get it written." And then I walked away.  

 

Needless to say, I am really trying to keep my cool with all this.  I called Mike Chisek on Monday and talked with him awhile.  To no avail. He basically said, what they teched was legal, and if GBU added to their car after, then that would be on them.

 

I can promise you guys 1 thing.  IF I show up to a race GBU is at, I'll have a stack of protest papers and atleast $1000.00 to drop and that car will be taken down to the last bolt and will be taken home in a box.  

 

We as competitors had that race stolen from us.  And I want to publicly apologize to all competitors at Indy for the series not doing the right thing.  They won't say it, but I will.  I am a small business trying to make a name for myself with my car builds and support and I can't provide a good environment to my customers with this kind of shenanigans going on. We did not come to race for 2nd place.

 

That is my side of the story.

Edited by Final Turn Motorsports
  • Like 10
  • Thanks 8
  • Confused 1
  • Sad 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 591
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Good morning folks.  I had a great discussion with Mike Chisek and Bill Riley yesterday.  I knew that the TAC was working on about 5 or 6 additional cars that need revalued on the VPI list so for 2021

My story.  I'm not one for protesting.  Have never done it. I also understand that post race tech, whether protested by a team or discovered by tech, illegal is illegal.  When I am asked to withdraw m

Just to be clear.  Nobody is upset with GBU for building the car or how the team is or drives.  We are upset with how the series handled teching and point association with this car, both pre and post

Posted Images

On 9/14/2020 at 8:01 AM, red0 said:

I snapped a few crappy pictures in impound for anyone who was not there to see what is being discussed. 

spacer.png

spacer.png

 

spacer.png

 

 

spacer.png

 

spacer.png

 

 

 

 

Moving ahead, what are everyone's thoughts on Bill posting photos of cars from impound and the logbooks? 

 

As I member enforced series I always thought we needed to be more open about the cars, considering getting under the cars and taking pictures is supposed to be technically illegal to do. I think showing these sort of pics helps the series and should be done for all cars in post race.....

 

  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

Moving ahead, what are everyone's thoughts on Bill posting photos of cars from impound and the logbooks? 

 

As I member enforced series I always thought we needed to be more open about the cars, considering getting under the cars and taking pictures is supposed to be technically illegal to do. I think showing these sort of pics helps the series and should be done for all cars in post race.....

 

Show me the rule that says you can’t take and post pictures. 
 

None of those photos were taken from underneath the car. The rule is so that someone’s hastily placed jack stands won’t drop a car on someone. All of the photos I have seen were taken from such an angle and location that the photographer wasn’t in danger.

 

Taking pictures and sharing with experts on the forum who aren’t at races (cough mender) is a great way to sniff out legal / illegal parts. Like the exhaust manifolds which we now know are totally fine. If members are to police tech (because it’s an impossible job for tech) then this kind of practice is essential.

 

*edit* I see now that you share the same sentiment and I misread your tone. So consider my post less antagonistic, more soapbox like agreement.

Edited by enginerd
  • Like 3
  • Haha 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Final Turn Motorsports said:

The tech officials then replies with, "we will see about that. I write the rules and you and not gonna run that anymore."

I still struggle to understand Jay's motives, over the last few years

Edited by Wink
  • Like 2
  • Sad 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Show me the rule that says you can’t take and post pictures. 
 

None of those photos were taken from underneath the car. The rule is so that someone’s hastily placed jack stands won’t drop a car on someone. All of the photos I have seen were taken from such an angle and location that the photographer wasn’t in danger.

 

Taking pictures and sharing with experts on the forum who aren’t at races (cough mender) is a great way to sniff out legal / illegal parts. Like the exhaust manifolds which we now know are totally fine. If members are to police tech (because it’s an impossible job for tech) then this kind of practice is essential.

 

*edit* I see now that you share the same sentiment and I misread your tone. So consider my post less antagonistic, more soapbox like agreement.

 

2019 post race on the east coast teams were encouraged to not lay down next to the car, as this was considered going underneath. I think the heat at barber sort of showed that space between the cars and competitors might be needed. I haven't been around post race this year, it might be different.

 

The post race picture database and logbook database idea came up about a year ago as an attempt to make more "room" in post race. If you want a glance but don't want to protest you could just continue to pack up and look at the pics later. Plus you could get proper photos from under a car, giving a better view of things that you aren't allowed to see under the middle of the car now (diff or trans swaps)

 

Sounds like we are pretty close in outlook....the counter argument for public posting was the debate over the "IP" that a team has with keeping their build details sort of secret.

Edited by Black Magic
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Final Turn Motorsports said:

 

 

He says "your fuel cell is illegal." "It is stock" i replied.  He said my fill hose is not legal.  I openly pointed out all the rules that make it legal and even called Dana Morrison about it after Daytona. And he agreed it met every aspect of the rules. The tech officials then replies with, "we will see about that. I write the rules and you are not gonna run that anymore." I said, "Fine. I have till January 1 to address it then. Get it written." And then I walked away.  

I’ve had probably the same discussion with Jay at annual tech two years in a row. I always end it by saying “just put it in the rulebook and I will be happy to make those changes”. And it doesn’t end up in the rulebook.

 

Thanks for sharing your side. This is eerily similar to the R3R Porsche protest at Barber.

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, enginerd said:

I’ve had probably the same discussion with Jay at annual tech two years in a row. I always end it by saying “just put it in the rulebook and I will be happy to make those changes”. And it doesn’t end up in the rulebook.

 

Thanks for sharing your side. This is eerily similar to the R3R Porsche protest at Barber.


I've also had the same conversation with Jay twice (one time Nate was standing there), and heard him have that conversation with 2 other teams.

Same story - he huffs and puffs about things not in the rulebook, I tell him to add them to the rulebook, and nothing happens.

Edited by Slugworks Paul
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

So I'm now sensing a common thread here (beyond the obvious already stated) - and that is the champcar shop visit tech sessions.

I wonder how the dynamic goes with these sessions - is it where the team invites champcar to come inspect the car in a 'hide and go seek' sort of fashion? Like, here is the car, tell me what it's value is without further explanation or a formal list of items presented on a tech sheet, like the rest of us do at pre-race tech? Once this visit/tech session ends, is the expectation that the tech sheet is sealed and finalized, and is not protestable at races, despite what the tech representatives may have missed, or what was changed in the car since then?

Based on conversations with Chisek and hearing his philosophy that we've all heard before - "I don't penalize teams for our mistake". If their mistake is not finding all the upgraded items on a car in a shop visit walkaround, then we have a problem. There is a clear deficiency in these sorts of tech inspections.

This sort of philosophy is ripe for issues, and it may just so happen that they only occur with big name high budget teams, no?

To respond to Final Turn's comment: "He basically said, what they teched was legal, and if GBU added to their car after, then that would be on them." -- How would that be 'on them'? Wouldn't that fall squarely in the realm of something that should, by design, be caught and addressed by post-race impound? And if they were given a special value for something (or ZERO value) that digresses from previous practices, shouldn't that be declared on the tech sheet so we all know it isn't intended to be hidden?

There's just so much wrong with this whole situation my feeble brain struggles to put it all into words.
 

Edited by Slugworks Paul
  • Like 9
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I would strongly challenge this premise of, "I don't penalize teams for our mistake".

 

Off track, in shop, inspections need to be considered a courtesy to reduce risk and not a binding contract.  The motivation for this statement seems to be, roughly, ewe told them it passed, we can't change our mind after it reaches the track".  While I'm sympathetic that a team's decision to attend may be strongly influenced by having this knowledge in hand, it cannot be contingent on it.

 

The rest of the field is constantly facing this intrinsic "risk": the cost of travel and racing versus the chance that they will be assessed additional points, or even be moved to EC at the track.  All of these teams are carrying a higher risk than the team that had the benefit of a pre-inspection.

 

If a team is not OK with the result of a pre-inspection not being binding; there's a clear choice, skip the pre-inspection and get teched at track like everybody else.  When considered in this light, there's still a material advantage to having the opportunity to potentially correct factors while still in the shop, even if it risks being incomplete or even wrong.

If you need a decision that's guaranteed there should to be only two paths, that are the same for all: a tech desk ruling or an approved rules petition.

 

TL;DR It's not about "not penalizing teams for our mistake", it's about not painting oneself into a corner.

Edited by pjt
  • Like 5
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

As a new Champcar member this is extremely disheartening that this series is this messed up.  I chose it because I wanted to be able to build a car to the rules and race it. It’s apparent that there are different sets of rules for different people.  IMO, you take that away and there’s very little reason to race Champ vs the other options.  
 

Serious question, who owns Champcar?  I understand it is run by the BOD, but who actually owns it, and decides how it’s ran? 

Edited by petawawarace
  • Like 2
  • Sad 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, enginerd said:

I’ve had probably the same discussion with Jay at annual tech two years in a row. I always end it by saying “just put it in the rulebook and I will be happy to make those changes”. And it doesn’t end up in the rulebook.

 

Thanks for sharing your side. This is eerily similar to the R3R Porsche protest at Barber.

It's eerily similar to how we were threatened in an email that our car was going to be deemed illegal after I inquired after Sebring 2 last year why GBU could run a manual transmission that was never offered with a 350 V8 in a 3rd Gen F-body. 

The same exact item too. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Snorman said:

It's eerily similar to how we were threatened in an email that our car was going to be deemed illegal after I inquired after Sebring 2 last year why GBU could run a manual transmission that was never offered with a 350 V8 in a 3rd Gen F-body. 

The same exact item too. 

"Nice car, too bad if it got ECed..."

  • Haha 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

First of all I would like to say all the champcar people in management and tech and the racers have been super great and I really do mean that.But I think we are overlooking the ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM if what Troy says is true Bill Rileys tire bill is about double our expenses for the entire weekend of racing.I dont mind if someone builds a faster car or has better drivers,because I can work on my car to make it faster and work on my driving skills,but if I know I cant afford to buy tires to be competitive I will leave champcar and do something else.So what you might say just one team out of so many,but as a former stock racer (been in racing since the 1960's and my dad since the 1940,s)the number one reason for people leaving the sport is the cost  of tires which has led to the elimination of the upper divisions in short track racing around the entire country.I personally think the series should concentrate not on the size of the tire but on tires that have the capability to last the weekend if it wants to remain a low budget common man type series.And for all this discussion about bill rileys car I am sure there have been many valid points raised but I am not naive enough to think that I would be treated the same as someone of Bill Rilleys stature   like my dad told me as a young boy life aint fair never has been never will be.But if we can level the playing field and save some money whats so bad about that?

 

  • Like 4
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said:

So I'm now sensing a common thread here (beyond the obvious already stated) - and that is the champcar shop visit tech sessions.

I wonder how the dynamic goes with these sessions - is it where the team invites champcar to come inspect the car in a 'hide and go seek' sort of fashion? Like, here is the car, tell me what it's value is without further explanation or a formal list of items presented on a tech sheet, like the rest of us do at pre-race tech? Once this visit/tech session ends, is the expectation that the tech sheet is sealed and finalized, and is not protestable at races, despite what the tech representatives may have missed, or what was changed in the car since then?

Based on conversations with Chisek and hearing his philosophy that we've all heard before - "I don't penalize teams for our mistake". If their mistake is not finding all the upgraded items on a car in a shop visit walkaround, then we have a problem. There is a clear deficiency in these sorts of tech inspections.

This sort of philosophy is ripe for issues, and it may just so happen that they only occur with big name high budget teams, no?

To respond to Final Turn's comment: "He basically said, what they teched was legal, and if GBU added to their car after, then that would be on them." -- How would that be 'on them'? Wouldn't that fall squarely in the realm of something that should, by design, be caught and addressed by post-race impound? And if they were given a special value for something (or ZERO value) that digresses from previous practices, shouldn't that be declared on the tech sheet so we all know it isn't intended to be hidden?

There's just so much wrong with this whole situation my feeble brain struggles to put it all into words.
 

 

 

I had Thomas drive to my house pre-season to tech our car. I can say our session was anything but what you described here. As a matter of fact he was very observant, and went through the car as it would in normal tech even added a few points for things I didn’t think would incur points.

 

Then when we came to Nelson they went over the car one more time as they put it into digital form. 

 

We aren’t GBU on the other hand, although we are kinda a big deal (If you need a fix for spotted cow)

 

Just wanted to share i thought from our perspective Thomas did a very fair and thorough inspection at my garage. 

 

 

  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, cj25 said:

First of all I would like to say all the champcar people in management and tech and the racers have been super great and I really do mean that.But I think we are overlooking the ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM if what Troy says is true Bill Rileys tire bill is about double our expenses for the entire weekend of racing.I dont mind if someone builds a faster car or has better drivers,because I can work on my car to make it faster and work on my driving skills,but if I know I cant afford to buy tires to be competitive I will leave champcar and do something else.So what you might say just one team out of so many,but as a former stock racer (been in racing since the 1960's and my dad since the 1940,s)the number one reason for people leaving the sport is the cost  of tires which has led to the elimination of the upper divisions in short track racing around the entire country.I personally think the series should concentrate not on the size of the tire but on tires that have the capability to last the weekend if it wants to remain a low budget common man type series.And for all this discussion about bill rileys car I am sure there have been many valid points raised but I am not naive enough to think that I would be treated the same as someone of Bill Rilleys stature   like my dad told me as a young boy life aint fair never has been never will be.But if we can level the playing field and save some money whats so bad about that?

 

CJ

Your thoughts on tires are what a lot of us have brought up, a few of us have put petitions through, yet have been denied. If this happened prior to the petitions I do think that something would have been approved through. Sometimes we need a good smack in the face to bring us to reality and this is just that on tires.  I do think this is going to be a turning point on a few fronts. The main item for the vette was the shock tower brace and I am 100% confident that the Champcar management team will fix that here very quickly. It will be an easy fix with a rule change that simply says a strut tower brace can have X amount of bars or Y amount of attachment points. Different ways to address it, but an easy fix. GBU might not like it as they will get laps, but we can all see they can make them up and more.

 

The harder fix, as it will not make some of the teams happy, is the tire cost situation. There are a lot of teams that win on the faster tires and it really helps them. Teams regularly go through 10-12 tires in a weekend. How do you not overly penalize a team for having the faster tires and yet make it so that the teams that need to save money can and be competitive. I was thinking laps for X tires and laps for tires of Y sizes.  How do you make is that a team like GBU get enough laps for their tires that it dos not make their win automatic. I started a thread to come up with ideas on this and see what would be best for all.

 

I do think the timing of all this is perfect though. The rules are just about to be released. We can change them now to address both issues and fix it for next year. I have already talked to a few teams that will not run the same race at the GBU team as we all have no chance of a win unless they fail, which they seem to have figured out how to not do it.  It needs to be fixed swiftly so it does not leave a long lasting stain on Champcar.

 

I think we all need to make sure we do not over react to this just now and have faith that the Champcar management and the BOD will address this and fix it. The GBU team found a loophole that will be fixed and the tire situation will be dealt with. This is what is good about Champcar and has been, the issues are addressed and fixed because we are a member based non for profit organization. It is expected that things change and are addressed and fixed. I do not expect a swift and quick decision as it will take time to sort out details on what will happen so I will be patient and wait to see what comes from it.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, enginerd said:

The tire cost doesn’t bother me as much. My car is cheap to run; lightweight, 15” wheels. If I had 5k per weekend to spend on tires and could go absolutely nuts I would still have 3k leftover. Tire money isn’t holding me back. I chose my car partially because of the operating cost and have never considered a big car because the costs are higher. I guess in my shoes it isn’t an issue of “oh man, if only I could spend more”, but I do feel for teams who are in that position. 

 

Don’t your operating costs get too high going through an engine every weekend though?

 

It’s a joke, ITS A JOKE....kinda....i mean at least it gives us a shot one of the days?

Edited by Gkuhn41
  • Haha 4
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, enginerd said:

I’ve had probably the same discussion with Jay at annual tech two years in a row. I always end it by saying “just put it in the rulebook and I will be happy to make those changes”. And it doesn’t end up in the rulebook.

 

Thanks for sharing your side. This is eerily similar to the R3R Porsche protest at Barber.

If you do not mind sharing, what is your tire budget for the weekend on the bmw, what tires do you use and how many?  I use the RS4 size 255/40/17 and get at least two races out of a set of 4. The cost is $350 for a race as a set costs $700.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Gkuhn41 said:

 

Don’t you operating costs get too high going through an engine every weekend though?

 

It’s a joke, ITS A JOKE....kinda....i mean at least it gives us a shot one of the days?

He can spend the remaining $3k on oil for those motors!

 

In all seriousness, we budgeted ~$4500 to build our second car...that didn't include the $500 we paid for the shell.  We could build a whole fleet of hairdresser cars with what they spend on tires in a weekend!

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

If you do not mind sharing, what is your tire budget for the weekend on the bmw, what tires do you use and how many?  I use the RS4 size 255/40/17 and get at least two races out of a set of 4. The cost is $350 for a race as a set costs $700.

$140/tire for 245/40/15 which last ~40 race hours (the last 10 are iffy)

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

If you do not mind sharing, what is your tire budget for the weekend on the bmw, what tires do you use and how many?  I use the RS4 size 255/40/17 and get at least two races out of a set of 4. The cost is $350 for a race as a set costs $700.

 

I wish our Audi could do that, but the overal heavy car and 60/40 split....we go through 6-8 tires per race.  We've never been able to race on used tires except maybe on the rear for half a day.

 

I'm sure we could spend time and money to get the balance and alignmet improved to reduce the tire wear, but honestly we don't have any more time or money to solve it.  

Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Gkuhn41 said:

Don’t your operating costs get too high going through an engine every weekend though?

 

It’s a joke, ITS A JOKE....kinda....i mean at least it gives us a shot one of the days?

Ouuuuuch.. well played. 

Until we went for this godforsaken swap we were on a 9 race finishing streak on a new m20b25 rebuild (which is still sitting in my garage all ready to go...). We are not accustomed to failure and I believe our engine woes are behind us... Road America will test that.

 

24 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

He can spend the remaining $3k on oil for those motors!

I have in the past weeks purchased oil that is so expensive, there is no way the next engine will fail! It is but one of several measures we are taking to finish a Sunday race in 2020.

  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I think we all need to make sure we do not over react to this just now and have faith that the Champcar management and the BOD will address this and fix it. The GBU team found a loophole that will be fixed and the tire situation will be dealt with. This is what is good about Champcar and has been, the issues are addressed and fixed because we are a member based non for profit organization. It is expected that things change and are addressed and fixed. I do not expect a swift and quick decision as it will take time to sort out details on what will happen so I will be patient and wait to see what comes from it.


The issue is that this is so strikingly similar to the R3R situation that it could be argued nothing was learned from that.. or maybe it's that nothing was desired to be learned. What was actually fixed from that? (and I don't mean the spring rule.. that was not the root cause by any measure)

I am thoroughly confused, on all fronts, why this happened and was allowed to happen. It is not in the best interest of anybody.

Edited by Slugworks Paul
  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

Just to clarify, who approves and distributes the BCCR to the members every year? 

Also, who is responsible for changes to the BCCR and approves them on an ongoing basis?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...