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Good morning folks.  I had a great discussion with Mike Chisek and Bill Riley yesterday.  I knew that the TAC was working on about 5 or 6 additional cars that need revalued on the VPI list so for 2021

My story.  I'm not one for protesting.  Have never done it. I also understand that post race tech, whether protested by a team or discovered by tech, illegal is illegal.  When I am asked to withdraw m

Just to be clear.  Nobody is upset with GBU for building the car or how the team is or drives.  We are upset with how the series handled teching and point association with this car, both pre and post

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2 hours ago, Gkuhn41 said:

 

 

I had Thomas drive to my house pre-season to tech our car. I can say our session was anything but what you described here. As a matter of fact he was very observant, and went through the car as it would in normal tech even added a few points for things I didn’t think would incur points.

 

Then when we came to Nelson they went over the car one more time as they put it into digital form. 

 

We aren’t GBU on the other hand, although we are kinda a big deal (If you need a fix for spotted cow)

 

Just wanted to share i thought from our perspective Thomas did a very fair and thorough inspection at my garage. 

 

 

Thomas is awesome and very thorough.  He also participates in champcar races unlike everybody else mentioned.

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2 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

If you do not mind sharing, what is your tire budget for the weekend on the bmw, what tires do you use and how many?  I use the RS4 size 255/40/17 and get at least two races out of a set of 4. The cost is $350 for a race as a set costs $700.

Assuming we run the whole event, we average $1000 per weekend on 15” RE71r. We normally bring a mix of stickers and partials. Tracks such as Brainerd / Gingerman / autobahn use less, Indy / NCM used more. 

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1 hour ago, Snorman said:

Just to clarify, who approves and distributes the BCCR to the members every year? 

Also, who is responsible for changes to the BCCR and approves them on an ongoing basis?

I believe the bod.  However, tech has the ability to make valuations that are good until the next bccr.  I haven't really seen all of the interpretations and values make it into the bccr from 1 year to the next...

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13 hours ago, SonsOfIrony said:

 

Absolutely 100% Hard NO.

 

Not all of us want to build 40 year old cars to go fast.

 

We chose a newer more expensive platform because we were all sick of the risk of tetanus, and scouring the internet for obscure replacement parts.  We have put countless hours and dollars into making the car look good and feel good (ergonomics).  It won't be an overdog, mechanically it's essentially stock.

 

Not to mention a buyout means an immidiate 6-10 month hiatus to racing.  I enjoy the build, but if I had to choose build or race, I choose race.  I wouldn't sell our new car for less than $20K.

 

A buyout rule would be an immediate end to ChampCar.  50+% of members would find somewhere else to go, and a new series would be created by someone.  It's a non-starter.  It's an unpopular opinion because it's a terrible idea.

 

*Before I share my reply, please note I am only asking questions. I'm not attacking or yelling, just observations from my point of view and would love to have a healthy discussion on the topic.

In a series originally built around "Build a $500 race car", and that was the rule stated as late as 2016. You wouldn't take less then $20,000 just 4 years later? That is a 3900% increase, wow! Don't get me wrong, your car is amazing, but cars like yours are part of the problem causing an arms race of spending. CC still stands by the idea about going racing without the "obscene expense", but has moved away from the $500 platform and replaced it with 500 points.


I did say my idea wouldn't be popular, especially with people that have spent way over the 10K price point I used in my example.

 

Unpopular opinion 2: You said 50% of the teams would leave, maybe. But we would see more grass root first timers come racing again. I loved when Mike would ask for CC first timers to raise their hand and lots would come up. But the last year when this was asked I only saw a few dozen. The optimistic side if me would say maybe teams would build a 2nd car that would be well within CC buy out price point, and take the other car to other non CC events where it would fit in better.
 

2010ChumpSite.jpg

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40 minutes ago, Mike.g said:

 

*Before I share my reply, please note I am only asking questions. I'm not attacking or yelling, just observations from my point of view and would love to have a healthy discussion on the topic.

In a series originally built around "Build a $500 race car", and that was the rule stated as late as 2016. You wouldn't take less then $20,000 just 4 years later? That is a 3900% increase, wow! Don't get me wrong, your car is amazing, but cars like yours are part of the problem causing an arms race of spending. CC still stands by the idea about going racing without the "obscene expense", but has moved away from the $500 platform and replaced it with 500 points.


I did say my idea wouldn't be popular, especially with people that have spent way over the 10K price point I used in my example.

 

Unpopular opinion 2: You said 50% of the teams would leave, maybe. But we would see more grass root first timers come racing again. I loved when Mike would ask for CC first timers to raise their hand and lots would come up. But the last year when this was asked I only saw a few dozen. The optimistic side if me would say maybe teams would build a 2nd car that would be well within CC buy out price point, and take the other car to other non CC events where it would fit in better.
 

2010ChumpSite.jpg

 

I think you misunderstand my $20K reference.  But this isn't the thread for it.  I firmly believe CCES will never have a claimer rule, and it shouldn't.

 

Our fields are too varied on so many levels for a single dollar value to ever fit even half the field.

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1 minute ago, SonsOfIrony said:

I think you misunderstand my $20K reference.  But this isn't the thread for it.  I firmly believe CCES will never have a claimer rule, and it shouldn't.

 

Our fields are too varied on so many levels for a single dollar value to ever fit even half the field.

 

Yes, it would be hard to do. Not like a stockcar class where you could claim an engine and swap engines for a fee. I shared a buyout rule as a possible way to discourage teams to bringing a car that is well over the XX value to come to a CC race.

 

IMO the 350 team nailed it! They built an amazing car that was hot on the track. Hats off to them.

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7 minutes ago, Mike.g said:

 

Yes, it would be hard to do. Not like a stockcar class where you could claim an engine and swap engines for a fee. I shared a buyout rule as a possible way to discourage teams to bringing a car that is well over the XX value to come to a CC race.

 

Money ≠ Speed.

 

Things like safety, ergonomics, and comfort all cost money.

 

Some teams are happy to run a car with a bare minimum roll cage, no name latch link harnesses, a kirkey bucket, and a parts store tach.  Not all of us are.  Overall cost just isn't a good metric, and therefore a claimer rule fails.

 

It may work in roundy round racing where you expect to write off a shell a few times a year and cages are made from gas pipe.  They won't work here.  Does LeMons even have a claimer rule anymore?  They're the bottom rung of the endurance racing ladder.  If they ditched it, it clearly doesn't work.

 

 

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2 hours ago, enginerd said:

Ouuuuuch.. well played. 

Until we went for this godforsaken swap we were on a 9 race finishing streak on a new m20b25 rebuild (which is still sitting in my garage all ready to go...). We are not accustomed to failure and I believe our engine woes are behind us... Road America will test that.

 

I have in the past weeks purchased oil that is so expensive, there is no way the next engine will fail! It is but one of several measures we are taking to finish a Sunday race in 2020.

 

I hope you guys get it dialed in, no one wants to be chewing through engines. 

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The impact survival series (which is like comparing apples, to rotten oranges) has a rule where the first and 2nd place car are claimed automatically by the series. The winner might get 3500 max for the win, but has to give up the car. But this is an short track oval 4cyl racing series.



https://www.facebook.com/Impact-Survival-Series-ISS-192347944128872

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8 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said:


The issue is that this is so strikingly similar to the R3R situation that it could be argued nothing was learned from that.. or maybe it's that nothing was desired to be learned. What was actually fixed from that? (and I don't mean the spring rule.. that was not the root cause by any measure)

I am thoroughly confused, on all fronts, why this happened and was allowed to happen. It is not in the best interest of anybody.

They may look similar, but I do not think so specifically. R3R, to me anyway, was when they wanted to run mega money adjustable control arms and tried to say they were stock replacement parts for zero points with sketchy emails to try to slip it through. That makes this totally different I think.  I also think they did something in a prior race, but I forget the details on that. They found a loophole to run swift springs for zero points that most did not know about, including me, that some teams were also using for years. There was the issue of finding a dang protest form that not one of us had.

 

GBU got approval for their strut tower bar and showed Champcar. This was forthcoming on their part on finding a loophole. I think the issue that we see is that it is so over the top that we all can see it should not be acceptable.  The other items they forgot to put in, materials and pulley's was missed and with a new build I can see that, no one is perfect, and those points were added and the point systems worked to add them.

 

The R3R issue was addressed and rules were applied. They had to take points on those parts now and a complete rule change happened based on the what is and what is not considered a free spring and the point values for springs, colors and adjusters has been modified.  When something happened change occurred.

 

I think this shows that the R3R issues was dealt with in time and I believe the GBU issues will be dealt with in time. We are a big ship now with lots of moving parts and it will take time. This is far to big an issue to just let go long term with it. 

 

The speed creep, actually speed leap, for them can also be dealt with by making rules for tires, which is being discussed on another thread. The question is, how to get them on 285 size RS4 tires and see how they finish with those for no points. I am thinking it is a 4-5 seconds advantage a lap and will say 4. In a 2 minute lap time race it is 1.0344% faster than the rest and is 7.931 laps ahead in an 8 hour race. How to make a fair rule that would add 8 laps to them based on the tire? We can go after different items, but that one of the real issues there.

 

The other is their massive hp advantage, but that seems to be within the rules. Should we say that any car can only have up to 299rwhp max? That could make it simple and bring them back down to a more reasonable speed? I would think if we did a rule as such it would slow them down and I am not aware of anyone else having over 299hp. I am going through the fields in my head and the next closest is like 260-270rwhp.

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In light of this situation, and as I look back on the e30 I built which immediately classed into EC (which really irritates the hell out of me given what i am seeing with this car), and will prob never run in Champ again after its one and only appearance at HH, I have some questions and an assertion,

 

First the questions:

1) At this point what do people feel like is the target cost to build a car to run in Champ (looking for modal value here not the mean). I spent a fair amount of dough building the e30, and would likely be not all the way out at the far right outlier position but out there a ways.

 

2) What is the target market for Champ? The span of investment (both dollars and time/development) is very broad, to the point where I don't see how you make it work rules-wise

 

3) What is the series going to do about the natural evolution of donor car availability? I've been starting to look around again after selling the e30, and I'm not finding much of anything I want to grab, that wouldn't immediately put me above 500 after build out, or that is already above 500 starting off.

 

Now for the assertion:

There is the thread on classing, this thread, the tire thing now out of this, and too many others to count on various rules related topics. It's time for the BoD and the series owner to get "out of the box" and definitively answer the three questions above, and structure the rules accordingly. Until that happens there will continue to be these types of distortions which make me not want to build another car (which i was warming to until this debacle).

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15 hours ago, Final Turn Motorsports said:

 

 

So after it is all done, nothing I can do.  I start putting wheels on my car.  One of the tech officials then comes to me and pulls me aside. "You ever heard the term, don't throw stones in a glass house?" I replied back to him, "what is glass about my car that I am throwing stones at?"

 

He says "your fuel cell is illegal." "It is stock" i replied.  He said my fill hose is not legal.  I openly pointed out all the rules that make it legal and even called Dana Morrison about it after Daytona. And he agreed it met every aspect of the rules. The tech officials then replies with, "we will see about that. I write the rules and you are not gonna run that anymore." I said, "Fine. I have till January 1 to address it then. Get it written." And then I walked away.  

 

 

 

This to me, highlights the biggest issue.

 

Big money, big name = protection by the series

Small money, small name = threatened by the series

 

Awesome.

 

Sorry you had to deal with all this. Sounds like a horrible experience.

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48 minutes ago, atxe30 said:

In light of this situation, and as I look back on the e30 I built which immediately classed into EC (which really irritates the hell out of me given what i am seeing with this car), and will prob never run in Champ again after its one and only appearance at HH, I have some questions and an assertion,

 

 

Can you share your build concept?  Why was it placed in EC?

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58 minutes ago, atxe30 said:

First the questions:

1) At this point what do people feel like is the target cost to build a car to run in Champ (looking for modal value here not the mean). I spent a fair amount of dough building the e30, and would likely be not all the way out at the far right outlier position but out there a ways.

I can tell you about a miata.  The prices for good donors are on the rise.  But if you came to me to build your car, there would be a lot of questions asked about what you wanted. From a turn key 1994 miata with stock motor and basic safety, you'd be in the realm of about $10k-$20k depending on options.  If you wanted a full built out 1994 competitive car for winning class, you'd be in the realm of $15k-$30k. If you wanted a motor swapped 1994 to B class, you'd be in the realm of $20k-$35k.  

I know most of you are dropping your jaws right now... pick them up.  The teams that have raced against me over the years have seen my car builds.  Glazed and Confused, Agent Chrome, Final Turn Motorsports, and a few others.  When you get the car, it is basically a new car. We start from the purchase of a street car, gut it, lighten it, and then proceed to go through every little piece of the car.  

 

So to put a finite value on what you can spend will never work.

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1 minute ago, Final Turn Motorsports said:

I can tell you about a miata.  The prices for good donors are on the rise.  But if you can to me to build your car, there would be a lot of questions asked about what you wanted. From a turn key 1994 miata with stock motor and basic safety, you'd be in the realm of a n out $10k-$20k depending on options.  If you wanted a fuel built out 1994 competitive car for winning class, you'd be in the realm of $15k-$30k. If you wanted a motor swapped 1994 to B class, you'd be in the realm of $20k-$35k.  

I know most of.you are dropping g your jaws right now... pick them up.  The teams that have raced against me over the years have seen my car builds.  Glazed and Confused, Agent Chrome, Final Turn Motorsports, and a few others.  When you get the car, it is basically a new car. We start from the purchase of a street car, gut it, lighten it, and then proceed to go through every little piece of the car.  

 

So to put a finite value on what you can spend will never work.

I see those prices as fair. I was thinking a car build would be in the 10-15K range when all added up if you keep is simple, add swaps and other items it adds up quickly. I did a spreadsheet of a 350z and it was at 22K in parts and assuming a 5-7K donor car to start with. Then another 5-10K in extra tires and spares.

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2 minutes ago, Huggy said:

 

Can you share your build concept?  Why was it placed in EC?

 

I'd have to go back and ask the Autospec guys who ran it at HH. But in general it was the overall nature of the build. Lot's of changes to M20 (Coil on plug, cam sensor, high end ECU, Motec PDM, custom motorsport wiring harness that was modular to facilitate fast swap to S52/54, etc), not re-cammed, I pulled that plug on the whole re-ground cam controversy thing. Headers, Aluminum flywheel, racing clutch. Also and this is a biggie: it came back from the cage fabricator with 4 tie in points up front to the strut wells (I didn't spec the cage that way it was more of just a "value add" from the race shop that put it in). Coil over suspension (not remote res though). Completely custom brake system, also completely custom fuel delivery inc. surge tank. There was more stuff I'm forgetting I'm sure. On pure points I think it was way north of a 700 point car so they just ended up in EC, maybe 'cause of the cage.

 

I can sum it up by saying, I set off to build what in my mind was a "real" race car. It was absolutely overbuilt vis-a-vis champ. That was a mistake on my part, *but*, given this situation and some others, this is the challenge, and why I think those three questions I asked above are germane to the resolution path.

 

I had a blast building that car, and look forward to doing another one, but next time around, want to do it in the context of a rule set that allows for some more race-y (but rational) parts without blowing you out of the classing system, but not require another build at the cost I put into the e30(which was a lot of dough, too much I think for this kind of amateur racing). Handicapping systems are never perfect, but this one is too distorted at this point to be sustainable (IMHO).

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