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33 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:


So the value randomly dropping seemingly for one team (compared to what was previously in the knowledge base) is a loophole? Can you explain that to me?

I can't. I'm not tech nor was I involved in granting them that value.  The Board took action to correct it.  

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My story.  I'm not one for protesting.  Have never done it. I also understand that post race tech, whether protested by a team or discovered by tech, illegal is illegal.  When I am asked to withdraw m

Good morning folks.  I had a great discussion with Mike Chisek and Bill Riley yesterday.  I knew that the TAC was working on about 5 or 6 additional cars that need revalued on the VPI list so for 2021

Just to be clear.  Nobody is upset with GBU for building the car or how the team is or drives.  We are upset with how the series handled teching and point association with this car, both pre and post

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17 hours ago, CBraden said:

Jer - thanks for the response. Appreciate the work to address these issues. Please advise if something is in the works to address the smog era V8s. If not, I'll look at possibly swapping one so I can get out of EC.

 

Honestly, it is the biggest remaining loophole in my mind.

 

 

The new VPI table will have addressed other potential loophole cars the TAC recommended be addressed.  

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4 minutes ago, Jer said:

I can't. I'm not tech nor was I involved in granting them that value.  The Board took action to correct it.  

QFT, I think there has been a lot of unnecessary hostility directed at the board, for decisions they did not make. It appears to me they have recognized the issues and are taking action to correct it. Some of yall are worse than the media, lets move on to the next news cycle please 

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14 hours ago, CBraden said:

 

Ah, thanks. Ok, then in that case - let's focus on the output.

 

Anybody can easily make more than 300 hp with a "134 hp" 70's 302 (with H/C/I/E).

 

In the case of the Opel, I could pull out the Gen III SBC truck motor @ 17,000 points, put in the "134 hp" 302, and my VPI would be... 128 points. I can then add H/C/I (exhaust is in the swap points) and still have plenty of points to cover all the aero and suspension swap stuff and race Non-EC. Basically, my car would be no slower than it is now, probably faster actually with that H/C/I 302 setup, and I would lose 17,000 points.

 

It makes no sense.

 

 

 

If I remember correctly, maybe 3 or 4 years ago there was a petition or a discussion about if you did an engine swap you were not allowed to do any mods to the swapped in engine to raise the power over its "stock" output. 

 

I liked that idea, but the majority of people complained.  That is one way that would help to close the loophole that you are pointing out.

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35 minutes ago, hotchkis23 said:

If I remember correctly, maybe 3 or 4 years ago there was a petition or a discussion about if you did an engine swap you were not allowed to do any mods to the swapped in engine to raise the power over its "stock" output. 

 

I liked that idea, but the majority of people complained.  That is one way that would help to close the loophole that you are pointing out.

 

I think you do remember correctly.  And If I can remember correctly and take it a step further, pretty sure it was some guy named Mike Chisek that submitted that one!

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17 hours ago, mender said:

GBU by just under 3 laps.

 

16 hours ago, petawawarace said:

Ding ding ding.  I used 5:30 for each pit stop because of in/out laps, and got just under 2 laps.

 

 

 

man i wish we could have even gotten 1.5hrs on a tank of fuel at RA..

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19 hours ago, Jer said:

With enough penalty laps it won't matter.  We won't ban them because they are fast.  That's just petty.  But we can even the playing field by starting them with more laps in penalty.  

Next year with all the pints changes to the Vette, they will likely have to detune to be competitive.  That will bring them back to the field a bit.  

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20 hours ago, CBraden said:

 

I agree. The swap calculator has similar issues. Ironically, my car has a _far_ worse pwr/weight ration than the GBU car, but it is 17,000 plus points.  However - you can find SBC V8 and SBF V8 engines from the smog era that can be made to run like the GBU car, but have hp numbers in the 150hp range. Add heads cam, intake, and headers... and it doesn't matter what car they came out of... so basically anyone can swap in any amount of hp they want as long as they pick a smog era V8 and have points to add H/C/I/E.

 

 

 

 

Even better, start w/ a smog era V8 car and you don't need to add swap points. Don't hate people.  88 HO 305 215hp, cam (roller) 50 points, Headers 25, intake 25, carb 25, oil pan 25 (doesn't add HP), home ported heads FREE... 150 points 300+hp....?  I just wish we had a Gen II F-body and not a Gen III. 

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21 hours ago, veris said:

I concur. There are areas that could be changed with minimal impact to performance. 50 points easily. 

 

They are now a 550 car. Come January however they are a 700 point car. 

 

I am less convinced they can remove 150+points for minimum performance impact. I suspect they will just have a competitive car with 2hrs of fuel vs a dominant one.

 

 

I am not sure that GBU will be that much slower next year. It has 3 advantages over the entire field and raising the vpi does not change that.

 

They have 375-400 hp or more.

They have 335 wide, ultra grippy tires and use $5,000 worth a weekend

They have a 26ish or more gallon fuel cell

They have good brakes

They have good handling

They are not heavy for their hp and fuel

 

I followed them through some twisty bits, every hour or so when they lapped me, and I was one of the fastest cars through the carousel at RA this weekend, yet they pulled away there also. 

 

There is no weakness in that car. The only car that had a chance at them was the BBY alimta SER as they could go fast and two hours on fuel, but they broke each day.

 

They can put the solid rear end and be similar in speed. They will put on stock heads, port and polish them to get the hp they want. They will not have what they have now, but going from 400 to 360 or so is not going to change much.

 

When you all look at the laps times you are looking at the their FTD times. What is really interesting is when you look at their times when traffic and others have traffic. They seemed to be around 10 seconds a lap faster all the time as all that power can give you advantages in traffic.

 

I pondered on long ride home how can the organization control the speed of GBU? The VPI increase can do some, the IRS can do some, but putting band aids on the real issue will not fix the real issues. What about the next unicorn build?

 

I still think the real issue to control speed is in 3 items.

1-It will be to limit the max hp (300 seems right to me) will slow them down by 3-5 seconds a lap. It will allow them to go a full 2 hours anywhere though.

2- Limit tire width and possible laps for specific tires - put them on 275/35/19 and I bet their laps times are a good 5 seconds slower.

3- Limit the amount of fuel. 26 gallon fuel cell is huge. Maybe limit fuel cells to 22 gallons max. 

 

With these type of rules in force then this might put them in check and keep it from happening again.

 

I also do not think it would negatively effect other teams. Does anyone have more than 300 hp? Use tires wider than 275? Or have a fuel cell larger than 22 gallons?

 

 

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7 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I am not sure that GBU will be that much slower next year. It has 3 advantages over the entire field and raising the vpi does not change that.

 

They have 375-400 hp or more.

They have 335 wide, ultra grippy tires and use $5,000 worth a weekend

They have a 26ish or more gallon fuel cell

They have good brakes

They have good handling

They are not heavy for their hp and fuel

 

I followed them through some twisty bits, every hour or so when they lapped me, and I was one of the fastest cars through the carousel at RA this weekend, yet they pulled away there also. 

 

There is no weakness in that car. The only car that had a chance at them was the BBY alimta SER as they could go fast and two hours on fuel, but they broke each day.

 

They can put the solid rear end and be similar in speed. They will put on stock heads, port and polish them to get the hp they want. They will not have what they have now, but going from 400 to 360 or so is not going to change much.

 

When you all look at the laps times you are looking at the their FTD times. What is really interesting is when you look at their times when traffic and others have traffic. They seemed to be around 10 seconds a lap faster all the time as all that power can give you advantages in traffic.

 

I pondered on long ride home how can the organization control the speed of GBU? The VPI increase can do some, the IRS can do some, but putting band aids on the real issue will not fix the real issues. What about the next unicorn build?

 

I still think the real issue to control speed is in 3 items.

1-It will be to limit the max hp (300 seems right to me) will slow them down by 3-5 seconds a lap. It will allow them to go a full 2 hours anywhere though.

2- Limit tire width and possible laps for specific tires - put them on 275/35/19 and I bet their laps times are a good 5 seconds slower.

3- Limit the amount of fuel. 26 gallon fuel cell is huge. Maybe limit fuel cells to 22 gallons max. 

 

With these type of rules in force then this might put them in check and keep it from happening again.

 

I also do not think it would negatively effect other teams. Does anyone have more than 300 hp? Use tires wider than 275? Or have a fuel cell larger than 22 gallons?

 

 

I think you are underestimating the power they are getting from the aluminum heads. They can port and polish away but that does not change the size of the valves from stock.  And they would loose the roller rockers that are surely in there as well.   They can certainly still end up with a fast car.  If it’s still too fast it can be adjusted again.    
 

I think a hp limit is very hard to enforce... way too many ways to fudge dyno graphs

 

tire size limit would be a good thing for the series 

 

and a fuel limit might be good too. 

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1 minute ago, JDChristianson said:

I think you are underestimating the power they are getting from the aluminum heads. They can port and polish away but that does not change the size of the valves from stock.  And they would loose the roller rockers that are surely in there as well.   They can certainly still end up with a fast car.  If it’s still too fast it can be adjusted again.    
 

I think a hp limit is very hard to enforce... way too many ways to fudge dyno graphs

 

tire size limit would be a good thing for the series 

 

and a fuel limit might be good too. 

What about a black box to put on cars to monitor hp?

 

Tire size limit would be easy to enforce and type for points would be easy.

 

I do not see any disadvantage to any cars for a 22 gallon fuel cell max size besides GBU?

 

EDIT- It is odd that we can agree on something JD. I like it.

Edited by MR2 Biohazard
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14 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

 

 

I also do not think it would negatively effect other teams. Does anyone have more than 300 hp? Use tires wider than 275? Or have a fuel cell larger than 22 gallons?

 

 

We are likey over 300hp we run 275's but our gas tank is 16 gallon and the car weighs much more than that vette. 

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4 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

I think you are underestimating the power they are getting from the aluminum heads. They can port and polish away but that does not change the size of the valves from stock.  And they would loose the roller rockers that are surely in there as well.   They can certainly still end up with a fast car.  If it’s still too fast it can be adjusted again.    
 

I think a hp limit is very hard to enforce... way too many ways to fudge dyno graphs

 

tire size limit would be a good thing for the series 

 

and a fuel limit might be good too. 

You don’t get valvetrain with the 100pt head. Non-OE rockers are an additional 50

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Bone stock L82s with a good set of headers in dyno trim make a little over 300hp.  I'm sure with some massaging from a pro the stock engine can make more than enough for their needs.

 

Leave the fuel rules alone, or change it for everyone.  Don't need you guys ruining my new unicorn before I get a chance to build it, lol.

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9 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

Right.  So to make real gains with oe cast heads they’d have to use points for cam and valve train.   And some how I doubt the bottom end is oe 78 vette stuff.  Could be, but...

I'm guessing the pistons would NOT be OEM, not for 78 anyway. No way I'd spend all that money on fancy heads and leave the 8:1 pistons in the car.  W/ aluminum heads, cam, rollers and whatnot. I'm sure it is north of 400hp. 

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3 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

I'm guessing the pistons would NOT be OEM, not for 78 anyway. No way I'd spend all that money on fancy heads and leave the 8:1 pistons in the car.  W/ aluminum heads, cam, rollers and whatnot. I'm sure it is north of 400hp. 

 

9:1 if it's an L82.  And the stock heads are open chamber.  76cc I think?  I'm sure the aluminum ones have smaller chambers.  BTW, L82s also had fully forged rotating assemblies from some prior research I did.

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4 minutes ago, karman1970 said:

 

9:1 if it's an L82.  And the stock heads are open chamber.  76cc I think?  I'm sure the aluminum ones have smaller chambers.  BTW, L82s also had fully forged rotating assemblies from some prior research I did.

You could get the heads fully CNC ported with good velocity, shave them to increase the compression to the 10.5+ range and still make good hp.  A roller rocker with the the correct ratio can give you more than a cam anyway. I would imagine in the 325-350hp range and strong tq powerband.

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52 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

 

I still think the real issue to control speed is in 3 items.

1-It will be to limit the max hp (300 seems right to me) will slow them down by 3-5 seconds a lap. It will allow them to go a full 2 hours anywhere though.

2- Limit tire width and possible laps for specific tires - put them on 275/35/19 and I bet their laps times are a good 5 seconds slower.

3- Limit the amount of fuel. 26 gallon fuel cell is huge. Maybe limit fuel cells to 22 gallons max. 

 

With these type of rules in force then this might put them in check and keep it from happening again.

 

I also do not think it would negatively effect other teams. Does anyone have more than 300 hp? Use tires wider than 275? Or have a fuel cell larger than 22 gallons?

 

 

 

The tire size would impact us.  We run 315's but since we have 17" wheels we are limited to only a couple of tires  (we run Nitto NT-05) that are not close to the ones they run. 

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33 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I am not sure that GBU will be that much slower next year. It has 3 advantages over the entire field and raising the vpi does not change that.

 

They have 375-400 hp or more.

They have 335 wide, ultra grippy tires and use $5,000 worth a weekend

They have a 26ish or more gallon fuel cell

They have good brakes

They have good handling

They are not heavy for their hp and fuel

 

I followed them through some twisty bits, every hour or so when they lapped me, and I was one of the fastest cars through the carousel at RA this weekend, yet they pulled away there also. 

 

There is no weakness in that car. The only car that had a chance at them was the BBY alimta SER as they could go fast and two hours on fuel, but they broke each day.

 

They can put the solid rear end and be similar in speed. They will put on stock heads, port and polish them to get the hp they want. They will not have what they have now, but going from 400 to 360 or so is not going to change much.

 

When you all look at the laps times you are looking at the their FTD times. What is really interesting is when you look at their times when traffic and others have traffic. They seemed to be around 10 seconds a lap faster all the time as all that power can give you advantages in traffic.

 

I pondered on long ride home how can the organization control the speed of GBU? The VPI increase can do some, the IRS can do some, but putting band aids on the real issue will not fix the real issues. What about the next unicorn build?

 

I still think the real issue to control speed is in 3 items.

1-It will be to limit the max hp (300 seems right to me) will slow them down by 3-5 seconds a lap. It will allow them to go a full 2 hours anywhere though.

2- Limit tire width and possible laps for specific tires - put them on 275/35/19 and I bet their laps times are a good 5 seconds slower.

3- Limit the amount of fuel. 26 gallon fuel cell is huge. Maybe limit fuel cells to 22 gallons max. 

 

With these type of rules in force then this might put them in check and keep it from happening again.

 

I also do not think it would negatively effect other teams. Does anyone have more than 300 hp? Use tires wider than 275? Or have a fuel cell larger than 22 gallons?

 

 

I think you under estimate the changes they will have to do to be 500 points legal. I guess we will see in a few months.

 

I could be mistaken, but the body kit seems to be the one item that hasn't been clearly addressed to me.  It would resolve some of the tire concerns too. 

 

I run 285s so a 275 rule would affect me a little. 285 have helped with tire wear. I've never changed a tire in a race before. Hope to never need too.  I get between 16 and 24 hours on a set of RS4s. 

 

Did GBU use 5k in tires at Road America? I haven't heard. Usually I am there, but the border is closed so I'm living vicariously through you guys.

 

For tires, having only one set of hand tools over the pit wall for changing tires would solve that issue in a single rule book sentence. 

 

I suppose you could also address swap issues with old iron and underrated engines. The series is slowly approaching a point where the fastest cars are all swapped. The problem with the swap calculator is that you can pop in a underrated large displacement motor for cheap and then release the hp with upgrades.  If you limited upgrades to bolt ons on swapped motors that would restrict big power. 

 

If you want to limit hp you can do it with a max throttle body opening or restrictor rule. ie 74mm max. Which is about 312whp assuming 10:1 CR. No impact on turbos, but they aren't a big issue right now due to fuel impacts. 

 

Pick you poison. 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, smitham32803 said:

 

The tire size would impact us.  We run 315's but since we have 17" wheels we are limited to only a couple of tires  (we run Nitto NT-05) that are not close to the ones they run. 

hmmm.  I ran the nt-05 and they were not great, but would last as they were hard like a rock. I found them to be like 2-3 seconds  a lap slower than rs3 at the time and RS4 can be faster. If you could find a tire in the 275 range you might be a lot faster.  Though the rule could hurt you though so dang as I was hoping it would not hurt anyone and there to keep costs and speed in line. What are your thoughts on tire rule option that would not hurt you, but could slow down them and also keep tire costs in line?

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1 hour ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

 

 

There is no weakness in that car. The only car that had a chance at them was the BBY alimta SER as they could go fast and two hours on fuel, but they broke each day.

 

 

 

Our fast lap was over 5 seconds slower and we could not go 2 hours at the pace we were holding at the start of saturday (which was much faster than last year, that fuel goes quick as a result)

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Let say all the shenanigans gets fixed and they are 500pts and still 5seconds faster then everyone else.

 

Would that be a problem? Isn't this EXACTLY what people here want? A good builder managed to build a fast car from low VPI.

 

You guys always says this is a builders series. 

 

Or is the problem that this car cost $50k to build? (just a made up number)

 

(I am personally the "non builder" type that have a normal race car)

Edit:
I agree that the $5000 tire budget leaves a sour taste if that accounts for 3-4 seconds

Edited by turbogrill
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Why is everyone OK with 300hp engines now, when the swap calculator for a c3 with 300 hp swap is:

 

Make: Chevrolet
Model: Corvette
Year: Pre-1980
VPi: 150
Car Weight: 3168
Original HP: 183
New HP: 300
Points Added to VPi: 879
--->NEW VPI: 1029

 

Seriously, either the rules need to drastically change, or the swap calculator does.

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