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4 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Let say all the shenanigans gets fixed and they are 500pts and still 5seconds faster then everyone else.

 

Would that be a problem? Isn't this EXACTLY what people here want? A good builder managed to build a fast car from low VPI.

 

You guys always says this is a builders series. 

 

Or is the problem that this car cost $50k to build? (just a made up number)

 

(I am personally the "non builder" type that have a normal race car)

Bingo. 
 

It seems some people won’t be satisfied until they are slowed to our level... I will be satisfied once they are playing with the same rulebook and aren’t shown favoritism (and it seems like we are getting there). 
 

After that, if they are still beating me, I have to tip my hat to an excellent build.

 

Edit: 

At that point it will be up to the series to say whether this is what they want. Maybe they make a tire rule or some other rule if they don’t like the speed, but I won’t be carrying torch and pitchfork. 

Edited by enginerd
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Good morning folks.  I had a great discussion with Mike Chisek and Bill Riley yesterday.  I knew that the TAC was working on about 5 or 6 additional cars that need revalued on the VPI list so for 2021

My story.  I'm not one for protesting.  Have never done it. I also understand that post race tech, whether protested by a team or discovered by tech, illegal is illegal.  When I am asked to withdraw m

Just to be clear.  Nobody is upset with GBU for building the car or how the team is or drives.  We are upset with how the series handled teching and point association with this car, both pre and post

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4 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Let say all the shenanigans gets fixed and they are 500pts and still 5seconds faster then everyone else.

 

Would that be a problem? Isn't this EXACTLY what people here want? A good builder managed to build a fast car from low VPI.

 

You guys always says this is a builders series. 

 

Or is the problem that this car cost $50k to build? (just a made up number)

 

(I am personally the "non builder" type that have a normal race car)

Edit:
I agree that the $5000 tire budget leaves a sour taste if that accounts for 3-4 seconds

 

Good points. I like the ability to build a custom car. Clearly there are issues with performance parity...  all the suspension and brakes and cage stiffening talk is just a distraction from the real speed differentiators on this car:

1) HP/Torque

2) Grip levels (via tire stickiness and massive size)

 

Without rules to specifically address those, you are playing whack a mole.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, veris said:

I think you under estimate the changes they will have to do to be 500 points legal. I guess we will see in a few months.

 

I could be mistaken, but the body kit seems to be the one item that hasn't been clearly addressed to me.  It would resolve some of the tire concerns too. 

 

I run 285s so a 275 rule would affect me a little. 285 have helped with tire wear. I've never changed a tire in a race before. Hope to never need too.  I get between 16 and 24 hours on a set of RS4s. 

 

Did GBU use 5k in tires at Road America? I haven't heard. Usually I am there, but the border is closed so I'm living vicariously through you guys.

 

For tires, having only one set of hand tools over the pit wall for changing tires would solve that issue in a single rule book sentence. 

 

I suppose you could also address swap issues with old iron and underrated engines. The series is slowly approaching a point where the fastest cars are all swapped. The problem with the swap calculator is that you can pop in a underrated large displacement motor for cheap and then release the hp with upgrades.  If you limited upgrades to bolt ons on swapped motors that would restrict big power. 

 

If you want to limit hp you can do it with a max throttle body opening or restrictor rule. ie 74mm max. Which is about 312whp assuming 10:1 CR. No impact on turbos, but they aren't a big issue right now due to fuel impacts. 

 

Pick you poison. 

 

 

 

 

I brought up a resister of 70mm to someone and they thought it would be to hard to police. They also thought it would be to hard to make it for all cars as there are so many different intakes out there. I was thinking if 70mm or smaller on the TB no issue. If above 70mm TB then a 70mm restriction prior to the tb or carb. Not one of those 70mm restrictions the formula SAE use that is coned in and out, just a flat plate with a 70mm hole in it. I do not know enough about restrictors to say X or Y is correct, but I am betting people on here do and could make that happen.

 

I think GBU used a single set each day as we did not notice them changing tires, but they were pretty far away.

 

Also, hand tools. I could change two tires with hand tools, with fuel, in less than 5 minutes. Jack it up, T handle speed wrench, loosen, spin, next. 1 minute for in and out, 2 minutes for fuel, driver in and out when fuel is going. That leaves 2 minutes for tires to be changed. The real challenge would be can you do all 4 in that time frame in under 5 minutes. With the right guys and enough practice I bet you could. If only someone had access to full time pit crew of an imsa or nascar team to bring to a Champcar race. OH wait, that might already be at the races.

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8 minutes ago, CBraden said:

Why is everyone OK with 300hp engines now, when the swap calculator for a c3 with 300 hp swap is:

 

Make: Chevrolet
Model: Corvette
Year: Pre-1980
VPi: 150
Car Weight: 3168
Original HP: 183
New HP: 300
Points Added to VPi: 879
--->NEW VPI: 1029

 

Seriously, either the rules need to drastically change, or the swap calculator does.

I didn’t say I thought 300 was good. If I implied that,  I didn’t mean to.   
 

I think that car is probably way north of 400 to the wheels.  That, to me at least, is out of control. 
 

with no min weight, the most important thing in racing,  power needs to be controlled.    Again, that’s just how I see it. 

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1 hour ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

What about a black box to put on cars to monitor hp?

 

Tire size limit would be easy to enforce and type for points would be easy.

 

I do not see any disadvantage to any cars for a 22 gallon fuel cell max size besides GBU?

 

EDIT- It is odd that we can agree on something JD. I like it.

 

Electronic black boxes will be mandatory for every semi-serious race series in 10 years or less. Cars will be weighed, weigh will be entered into the black box, and it will spit out the power calculated from the measured acceleration.

 

Yes, people will still cheat (this is not accusing GBU or anyone here of cheating) by soft pedaling below where accel becomes drag limited... but it will still happen.

 

This isn't an "if?" it is a "when?".

 

 

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17 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I brought up a resister of 70mm to someone and they thought it would be to hard to police. They also thought it would be to hard to make it for all cars as there are so many different intakes out there. I was thinking if 70mm or smaller on the TB no issue. If above 70mm TB then a 70mm restriction prior to the tb or carb. Not one of those 70mm restrictions the formula SAE use that is coned in and out, just a flat plate with a 70mm hole in it. I do not know enough about restrictors to say X or Y is correct, but I am betting people on here do and could make that happen.

 

I think GBU used a single set each day as we did not notice them changing tires, but they were pretty far away.

 

Also, hand tools. I could change two tires with hand tools, with fuel, in less than 5 minutes. Jack it up, T handle speed wrench, loosen, spin, next. 1 minute for in and out, 2 minutes for fuel, driver in and out when fuel is going. That leaves 2 minutes for tires to be changed. The real challenge would be can you do all 4 in that time frame in under 5 minutes. With the right guys and enough practice I bet you could. If only someone had access to full time pit crew of an imsa or nascar team to bring to a Champcar race. OH wait, that might already be at the races.

 

If GBU was not swapping tires during the race, that makes it a lot harder to make a rule to discourage their tire tactics. If they were, then maybe only allow one tire swap per pit stop... see if that is enough to address people using gumball tire compounds. 

 

 

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I am absolutely fine with somebody being 5 plus seconds a lap faster than me if they have a legal car.

 

I've won races with like the 20th fastest time due to consistency and strategy.

 

There will always be a faster car....

 

Take 200 pts away and let's see how they do.  I'm guessing like a 40% win ratio....  that isn't too far off some other teams.

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3 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I am absolutely fine with somebody being 5 plus seconds a lap faster than me if they have a legal car.

 

I've won races with like the 20th fastest time due to consistency and strategy.

 

There will always be a faster car....

 

Take 200 pts away and let's see how they do.  I'm guessing like a 40% win ratio....  that isn't too far off some other teams.

Agreed. If the car is still way too fast next year then you bump up the VPI a little more. This is what VPI is for and actually what caused this issue in the first place. re: 350 point drop in 1 year. 

 

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48 minutes ago, veris said:

Agreed. If the car is still way too fast next year then you bump up the VPI a little more. This is what VPI is for and actually what caused this issue in the first place. re: 350 point drop in 1 year. 

 

 

This^^.  VPI adjustment has been the way it has been handled in the past.  The widebody kit seems to be a root cause of the overly wide tire.  I still don't understand why that is allowed.  So, if you keep adjusting VPI to bring it back to some semblance of balance and eliminate the ability to use the huge tire, then it should be more in line.  This car and team will still be fast, obviously they are a great team, but maybe a little closer to the pointy pack.

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22 minutes ago, Burningham said:

 

This^^.  VPI adjustment has been the way it has been handled in the past.  The widebody kit seems to be a root cause of the overly wide tire.  I still don't understand why that is allowed.  So, if you keep adjusting VPI to bring it back to some semblance of balance and eliminate the ability to use the huge tire, then it should be more in line.  This car and team will still be fast, obviously they are a great team, but maybe a little closer to the pointy pack.

They can get the wide tires back with flares if the body kit is removed. I figure about 10 points per wheel of material would be required. The camaro they had before was done this way, except they turned the roof into flares. 

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34 minutes ago, enginerd said:

They can get the wide tires back with flares if the body kit is removed. I figure about 10 points per wheel of material would be required. The camaro they had before was done this way, except they turned the roof into flares. 


The wide body kit is wider than a typical flare, but you are right they can get most of it back. I mean handling this situation within the rules we have leaves just a few options as already mentioned (VPI, max size of tires/flares).  Anything else impacts a lot of other cars that aren’t 8-10 sec faster than the field. 

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Let’s just go power to weight already.  Who cares how it makes power or what it’s VPI is.  
 

oh yeh we aren’t class racing. carry on...
 

 

 

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Geez you guys, step away and pages are posted.  The car in question, so I've heard anyway, will be detuning because of all the laps they will get next year.  So the speed will come down.  I don't have a crystal ball so let's see what happens. 

 

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2 hours ago, enginerd said:

They can get the wide tires back with flares if the body kit is removed. I figure about 10 points per wheel of material would be required. The camaro they had before was done this way, except they turned the roof into flares. 

10 square feet of material each?  How wide are these mofos?

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16 hours ago, enginerd said:

They can get the wide tires back with flares if the body kit is removed. I figure about 10 points per wheel of material would be required. The camaro they had before was done this way, except they turned the roof into flares. 

I still don't understand how that was considered a factory body.  This is why cost should be considered in builds. Otherwise you will have a few teams with bunches of money win every race. If I had bunches of money and some free time it'd be easy to build a stupid fast car with the current "points" structure. But I don't so it is back to tweaking a Gen III 305 f-body. 

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13 hours ago, enginerd said:

I thought steel was 3pts./sq. ft.?

 

• Materials will be charged at the following rate: o Interior bulkheads: 0 pts o Plywood: 1 point per sq.ft o Sheet aluminum/steel: 2 points per sq.ft. o Sheet plastic/polycarbonate/fiberglass: 3 points per sq.ft. o CARBON FIBER: NOT ALLOWED

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20 hours ago, CBraden said:

Why is everyone OK with 300hp engines now, when the swap calculator for a c3 with 300 hp swap is:

 

Make: Chevrolet
Model: Corvette
Year: Pre-1980
VPi: 150
Car Weight: 3168
Original HP: 183
New HP: 300
Points Added to VPi: 879
--->NEW VPI: 1029

 

Seriously, either the rules need to drastically change, or the swap calculator does.

 

A concept that has gone around several times over the years.... Engine mods get points assigned with a calculator like the swap calculator. Engine mods are scalers (multipliers) of the engine base hp. That number goes in the swap calc. For example, cams could be 1.10 (10% power increase). 

 

This would reduce engine mods stacking, where you take a low vpi car and build an engine combo that would never be swappable due to points. The extreme example of this is when you see people swap top ends of a higher power motor onto a lower power base engine bottom end, to avoid paying the higher hp engine points. 

 

It would affect several front running cars, and would point out the need to get the swap math respectable (weights) in a way that would affect other front running cars. Despite closing the performance gap, politically I doubt you would get people to agree to this (and give up their advantage). 

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6 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

A concept that has gone around several times over the years.... Engine mods get points assigned with a calculator like the swap calculator. Engine mods are scalers (multipliers) of the engine base hp. That number goes in the swap calc. For example, cams could be 1.10 (10% power increase). 

 

This would reduce engine mods stacking, where you take a low vpi car and build an engine combo that would never be swappable due to points. The extreme example of this is when you see people swap top ends of a higher power motor onto a lower power base engine bottom end, to avoid paying the higher hp engine points. 

 

It would affect several front running cars, and would point out the need to get the swap math respectable (weights) in a way that would affect other front running cars. Despite closing the performance gap, politically I doubt you would get people to agree to this (and give up their advantage). 

Wouldn't a head swap be 100 points? Not like I can grab a set of vortex heads and put them on our 305 and take no points. The item you quoted doesn't make any sense. A low HP C3 doesn't use a swap calculator. That 180hp 350 is now 350+ and the only points you need to add is for add-ons.  25 carb (although the stock one will work), 25 intake, 50 cam, 25 headers... 

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8 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

A concept that has gone around several times over the years.... Engine mods get points assigned with a calculator like the swap calculator. Engine mods are scalers (multipliers) of the engine base hp. That number goes in the swap calc. For example, cams could be 1.10 (10% power increase). 

 

This would reduce engine mods stacking, where you take a low vpi car and build an engine combo that would never be swappable due to points. The extreme example of this is when you see people swap top ends of a higher power motor onto a lower power base engine bottom end, to avoid paying the higher hp engine points. 

 

It would affect several front running cars, and would point out the need to get the swap math respectable (weights) in a way that would affect other front running cars. Despite closing the performance gap, politically I doubt you would get people to agree to this (and give up their advantage). 

I like this....

 

However, I have an engine swap with no additional power adders.  So, it would probably just look selfish that I want to slow people down so I can be relatively faster....

 

...which may be true if I'm honest with myself.  It would help with squashing unicorns, but it might also hurt those teams that are just trying to compete and using their points how they choose.

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21 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

Wouldn't a head swap be 100 points? Not like I can grab a set of vortex heads and put them on our 305 and take no points. The item you quoted doesn't make any sense. A low HP C3 doesn't use a swap calculator. That 180hp 350 is now 350+ and the only points you need to add is for add-ons.  25 carb (although the stock one will work), 25 intake, 50 cam, 25 headers... 

I'm curious about the math on their engine.  You got me thinking....

 

300 pt base vpi.

100 pt heads

50 pt cams

25 pt intake

 

They are at 475 if they keep the engine with the stock carb and exhaust.

 

That only leaves them 25 pts for the rear end.  I believe the rear will be closer to 100 pts for 2021.

 

Where do they take points off?  I assume that they are too far into it to put in the c3 irs.

 

That means it's gotta be engine, right?  

 

What would yall remove to get back under 500 pts?  Basically, need to remove at least 75 pts...

 

I'm guessing that they need to remove a lot more than 75 pts since they started 5 laps down.  So, they would need to remove 125 pts of stuff to not have laps.

 

As it is, they won by 3 laps with a 5 lap deficit.  In other words, they could deal with 80 pts above 500 and still win.  That realistically means they could only remove 45 pts of items and still be in the hunt.

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