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2 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I'm curious about the math on their engine.  You got me thinking....

 

300 pt base vpi.

100 pt heads

50 pt cams

25 pt intake

 

They are at 475 if they keep the engine with the stock carb and exhaust.

 

That only leaves them 25 pts for the rear end.  I believe the rear will be closer to 100 pts for 2021.

 

Where do they take points off?  I assume that they are too far into it to put in the c3 irs.

 

That means it's gotta be engine, right?  

 

What would yall remove to get back under 500 pts?  Basically, need to remove at least 75 pts...

 

I'm guessing that they need to remove a lot more than 75 pts since they started 5 laps down.  So, they would need to remove 125 pts of stuff to not have laps.

 

As it is, they won by 3 laps with a 5 lap deficit.  In other words, they could deal with 80 pts above 500 and still win.  That realistically means they could only remove 45 pts of items and still be in the hunt.

 

I suspect the heads will come off, and some pretty well ported factory heads will go back on. That is what I would do anyway. It will probably require a smaller cam too, but doubt I would go back to factory as the 80's cams were not good.

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6 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

From what I understand you can "home" port a head for 0pts. Couldn't you just port the stock heads? Or they would need significant rewelding or something?

Even significant rewelding and then porting is acceptable.

 

I'm guessing a lot of the power comes from the heads utilizing a different casting which can move the passages around to get free-er air flow.

 

That being said, I'm sure a raceshop has a flowbench, a welder, and a dremel.  More effort, similar result.

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1 minute ago, wvumtnbkr said:

flowbench

This will be the key item required. The bowl is likely different as well and again could be welded and machined.

 

In the early days rules said you had to claim value for machine work??? Is that still in there.

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24 minutes ago, CBraden said:

 

I suspect the heads will come off, and some pretty well ported factory heads will go back on. That is what I would do anyway. It will probably require a smaller cam too, but doubt I would go back to factory as the 80's cams were not good.

 

Stock L82 cam is pretty good.  Same hydraulic roller GM was running on the muscle car 350s in the early 70s.  It's literally a 350/350 L46 with low compression heads and flat top pistons.

 

I'd go back stock, massage the heads, and add some headers.  It'll make north of 300hp at the crank and you'd still have 175 points to play with.  Will be interested in seeing what they end up doing, since only they know the car's current strengths and weaknesses.

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56 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I'm curious about the math on their engine.  You got me thinking....

 

300 pt base vpi.

100 pt heads

50 pt cams

25 pt intake

 

They are at 475 if they keep the engine with the stock carb and exhaust.

 

That only leaves them 25 pts for the rear end.  I believe the rear will be closer to 100 pts for 2021.

 

Where do they take points off?  I assume that they are too far into it to put in the c3 irs.

 

That means it's gotta be engine, right?  

 

What would yall remove to get back under 500 pts?  Basically, need to remove at least 75 pts...

 

I'm guessing that they need to remove a lot more than 75 pts since they started 5 laps down.  So, they would need to remove 125 pts of stuff to not have laps.

 

As it is, they won by 3 laps with a 5 lap deficit.  In other words, they could deal with 80 pts above 500 and still win.  That realistically means they could only remove 45 pts of items and still be in the hunt.

100 points for the heads is a waste of points. You can port the stock units and still make power.

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54 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

From what I understand you can "home" port a head for 0pts. Couldn't you just port the stock heads? Or they would need significant rewelding or something?

Yes we ported our stock heads and unshrouded the valves. Stock SBC heads will flow pretty well w/ some port work... the 350 heads are even bigger because they have bigger valves. 

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19 minutes ago, karman1970 said:

 

Stock L82 cam is pretty good.  Same hydraulic roller GM was running on the muscle car 350s in the early 70s.  It's literally a 350/350 L46 with low compression heads and flat top pistons.

 

I'd go back stock, massage the heads, and add some headers.  It'll make north of 300hp at the crank and you'd still have 175 points to play with.  Will be interested in seeing what they end up doing, since only they know the car's current strengths and weaknesses.

The 882 heads are junk compared to what's on that car now. And they had a reputation for cracking, which might pose a problem in endurance racing. They are so not even in the league of the heads on that car now they aren't even worth using as canopy weights. 

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36 minutes ago, Snorman said:

The 882 heads are junk compared to what's on that car now. And they had a reputation for cracking, which might pose a problem in endurance racing. They are so not even in the league of the heads on that car now they aren't even worth using as canopy weights. 

couldn't they use ANY head from the C3 platform and not get hit? From what I understand we could use the L98 350 and not take a points hit.  

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25 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

couldn't they use ANY head from the C3 platform and not get hit? From what I understand we could use the L98 350 and not take a points hit.  

It would be pretty amazing to find out that one could run a 26 gallon '78 or later C3 and use ANY head (and cam, trans, etc.?) from ANY C3 on it for no points. 

But for some reason, I wouldn't even be surprised. 

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18 minutes ago, Snorman said:

It would be pretty amazing to find out that one could run a 26 gallon '78 or later C3 and use ANY head (and cam, trans, etc.?) from ANY C3 on it for no points. 

But for some reason, I wouldn't even be surprised. 

Pretty sure that is the case. Like I said we have a 88 WS-6 LB9 (305) firebird but the car would be the same points with a L98 350.  

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8 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

Pretty sure that is the case. Like I said we have a 88 WS-6 LB9 (305) firebird but the car would be the same points with a L98 350.  

You're not supposed to be able to build a combo that wasn't available from the factory or OE. But again, based on the history I would not be surprised. 

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7 hours ago, Team Infiniti said:

RThere are many who will fight, kick and scream to keep tires unregulated but will use any logic possible rather then speak the truth        i.e.  *Anyone who can afford it can buy 2+ seconds per lap for 0 points*

Just like the +2 gallon fuel cell freebie for big spenders, wanna go after that one too?

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54 minutes ago, ABR-Glen said:

Just like the +2 gallon fuel cell freebie for big spenders, wanna go after that one too?

Sure!

 

That rule was originally written to allow teams to buy a cell in a standard size up to 2 gallons over stock and displace back to stock.

 

The rule wasn't clearly written and the interpretation of just a points free 2 gallons has stuck for the last 8 or so years.

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18 hours ago, Snorman said:

You're not supposed to be able to build a combo that wasn't available from the factory or OE. But again, based on the history I would not be surprised. 

The only thing as I understand it is we'd have to add 25 for the T5 as I think all 350 cars were auto. The L98 was an option. The VPI doesn't  ask what V8 only has V6 Firebird or V8. 

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42 minutes ago, TiredBirds said:

The only thing as I understand it is we'd have to add 25 for the T5 as I think all 350 cars were auto. The L98 was an option. The VPI doesn't  ask what V8 only has V6 Firebird or V8. 

Ummm.....    nah. 

 

Imma not touching that whole wrong trans with 350 thing again....

 

I agree you should have to pay the 25 points.

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13 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Ummm.....    nah. 

 

Imma not touching that whole wrong trans with 350 thing again....

 

I agree you should have to pay the 25 points.

we did with the 84... but we don't w/ the 88 since it was a 305 - stick car from the factory. Actually it is another #'s match8ing car we are hacking up. 

 

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12 hours ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Sure!

 

That rule was originally written to allow teams to buy a cell in a standard size up to 2 gallons over stock and displace back to stock.

 

The rule wasn't clearly written and the interpretation of just a points free 2 gallons has stuck for the last 8 or so years.

 

I actually figured it was a incentive for teams to buy a safer fuel container, if we had to run a cell at stock capacity, i'd save the $$ and just run a stock tank.

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16 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

I actually figured it was a incentive for teams to buy a safer fuel container, if we had to run a cell at stock capacity, i'd save the $$ and just run a stock tank.

This was my impression as well.  We Started with the ‘14 season and the rule has been the same since then.   

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21 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

This was my impression as well.  We Started with the ‘14 season and the rule has been the same since then.   

The rule didn't really change wording much, if at all.  However, the discussions about fuel cells made it clear this rule was just to allow people to buy an off the shelf cell versus getting a 15.7gallon (or whatever) fuel cell made.  

 

This was probably around 2011 or 2012 would be my guess.

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On 10/28/2020 at 11:14 AM, TiredBirds said:

Wouldn't a head swap be 100 points? Not like I can grab a set of vortex heads and put them on our 305 and take no points. The item you quoted doesn't make any sense. A low HP C3 doesn't use a swap calculator. That 180hp 350 is now 350+ and the only points you need to add is for add-ons.  25 carb (although the stock one will work), 25 intake, 50 cam, 25 headers... 

 

Exactly the point, for engines with significant engine mods that respond well to those mods you are capable of adding significantly more power than the series is targeting (or perhaps the points would indicate). 

 

VPI is set on the performance of the stock engine. We generally, or at least used to have limits of power to weight that were allowed in 500 and under point cars. The swap calculator also has a targeted limit of power to weight. The only way you get radical departures from the series target power to weight is from engine mods for points (heads, cams and forced induction the main players), silly swap weights and lobbying for low vpi on an otherwise powerful car. 

 

The concept is that for ALL cars ALL engine mods would have to go through a calculator where you enter base power and click check boxes for the engine mods you did. It multiplies the base power by factors for each engine mod and assigns points in a non linear function using the same math as the swap calculator. That way you put increasing penalty for mods that should result in big departures from the series rough intention of power to weight. 

 

Anyone really think the performance of GBU swapping in a newer rear diff and axles equals that of running a bigger cam (50 points)? 

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On 10/28/2020 at 11:14 AM, wvumtnbkr said:

I like this....

 

However, I have an engine swap with no additional power adders.  So, it would probably just look selfish that I want to slow people down so I can be relatively faster....

 

...which may be true if I'm honest with myself.  It would help with squashing unicorns, but it might also hurt those teams that are just trying to compete and using their points how they choose.

 

Assuming we get your swap weight to be a reasonable value for the car (not a convertible).... you played by the rules that put a exponential penalty for adding power beyond a certain point when swapping an engine. Shouldn't it be reasonable another guy pays the same penalty for making that power (or alot more) in another method? 

 

Otherwise you should have found a low HP 5.0 and cammed\ported the head to circumvent the intended pwr of the series for your car and kicked more butt......

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8 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

Assuming we get your swap weight to be a reasonable value for the car (not a convertible).... you played by the rules that put a exponential penalty for adding power beyond a certain point when swapping an engine. Shouldn't it be reasonable another guy pays the same penalty for making that power (or alot more) in another method? 

 

Otherwise you should have found a low HP 5.0 and cammed\ported the head to circumvent the intended pwr of the series for your car and kicked more butt......

I think the weight is actually about right for an s5.  

 

My car is MUCH heavier than I anticipated....

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18 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

I think the weight is actually about right for an s5.  

 

My car is MUCH heavier than I anticipated....

1990 rx7 13b swap calc weight is 2797. The lightest 2nd gen OEM curb weight is 2696, which should be about a 2450 lbs swap weight given the typical 10% reduction in swap weight from curb weight (but often applied to the heaviest convertible model, not the lighter model people race). 

 

If that thing weighs 2800 race weight no wonder you burn brakes off.... :)

 

FWIW you could do a 200 hp 5.0 swap in a 1990 claimed car for only 2 points over the min swap fee. Same for 3800, with a cam might be a great combo. 

 

Point being, you still need the trifecta of VPI, Swap weight and "Engine mod Points" to be correctly applied if you want PWR to be reasonable in the series. Otherwise you will get big outliers if anyone gets a big break in either of the 3. 

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