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4 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Even the LT1 F-bodies are stout. 

They outclass our Cobra with ease.

285 hp vs. 240 hp

Aluminum heads vs. cast iron

SLA front suspension vs. modified McPherson strut

Factory panhard bar vs. 4-link Quadrabind

T56 (with double-overdrive and more aggressive gearing) vs. T5

Same fuel capacity

Similar curb weight

 

We were seriously looking at multiple Gen 4 F-bodies, but they are much harder to work on (engine is mostly under the cowl, challenging exhaust) and we felt more comfortable with the Mustang. But they absolutely outperform any Mustang from the same era. 

 

So why isn't everyone racing and winning with them? 285hp sounds insane and should be a winner regardless of track. They can't be that heavy and crappy in handling?

 

Seems like everyone really good builders can make a shitty car handle well?

 

Edited by turbogrill
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2 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

So why isn't everyone racing and winning with them? 285hp sounds insane and should be a winner regardless of track. They can't be that heavy and crappy in handling?

 

Seems like everyone really good builders can make a shitty car handle well?

 

Why isn't everybody racing and winning with SN95 Mustangs? 

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52 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

You tell me, you are the expert :) 

 

IMO it's just because nobody has built a very serious car and been able to put together a solid team and roster of drivers. I know of a Gen 4 out there that could very well be out there winning races, but most times it's about more than just the car. 

EDIT: A perfect example of the superiority of the Gen 4 platform is NASA CMC. It restricts all cars down, benefitting the Mustangs. It gives the Mustangs a number of parts and mods that it does not give to F-bodies (headers, cam, panhard). But in the end performance is similar. 

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15 hours ago, Black Magic said:

You don't think 100 hp gain  (320 total) is possible with cam\intake\carb\headers on a stock casting 305? If your particular combo isn't then maybe drop one of the pieces that isn't adding the power that is possible with a good build.  

 

I totally spitballed those multipliers, we could move them as needed to be reasonable. I went high as starting numbers, just trying to show how it could work.  

 

 

 

Andrew has suggested in the past we take hp and torque to determine the power number (either take the higher, average, average and weigh the averages, etc). This could tame the really extreme mid 70's engines. Solid point you make, we still need to handle the most extreme smog examples (500 ci caddy anyone). 

 

Heads are the hardest part to evaluate, would be much easier if we forced the use of a head with a known power rating. Heads are the cornerstone of power development. 

 

You have that now. You would not have that if the multipliers were close to "estimating" your 200 hp build of a 140 hp engine. If you have a Miata you can't swap in 200 hp and be under 500 points, but you could swap in a 140 hp detuned engine and with cam\header\intake get it under 500 points and 200 hp. Assume the only difference between 140 and 200 hp spec of the oem motors is in the cam\header\intake, you could literally run a motor not legal to swap simply by claiming the math differently. 

 

 

Don't get me wrong our 305 runs very well, It might have that but I don't know. The 88 has lower compression than the L69 we had before. With the head work we did it might be around 9.3:1. I have no doubt with a set of pistons it'd be well over 325.  Maybe I'll take it to a shop and dyno it...if we can ever get it finished.  eng1.jpg.2fadf8a6755ff4b949e9e8e2395ea1de.jpg

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10 hours ago, Snorman said:

Even the LT1 F-bodies are stout. 

They outclass our Cobra with ease.

285 hp vs. 240 hp

Aluminum heads vs. cast iron

SLA front suspension vs. modified McPherson strut

Factory panhard bar vs. 4-link Quadrabind

T56 (with double-overdrive and more aggressive gearing) vs. T5

Same fuel capacity

Similar curb weight

 

We were seriously looking at multiple Gen 4 F-bodies, but they are much harder to work on (engine is mostly under the cowl, challenging exhaust) and we felt more comfortable with the Mustang. But they absolutely outperform any Mustang from the same era. 

I had an 87 Formula 350. That thing was a beast. It out ran and out handled the Fox body's.  The Gen IV is an even better car, but you are correct the engine sits WAAAAY back. You are getting a Corvette with a rear seat.  

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Regarding the F-body discussion:

I wanted to go with a 3rd gen or 4th gen F-body originally. I grew up with them. I originally thought a 88-92 305 TPI (LB9) 5 spd (the higher HP LB9) would be a nice starting point and maybe better fit than L98 with a trans swap. Looked at Lt1 4th gens but I am much more familiar with 3rd gens. I still think a solid worked up LB9 3rd gen would be a great car in the series. Years ago I had a 92 Formula-350, loved that car.

 

The only reason I didn't go this direction... Finding a suitable car at a reasonable cost in my area. Even beat to heck f-bodies are going for good money and I didn't want to basically restore a car or undo a ton of stupid mods someone did. E36, E46, and E39's BMWs... Easy to find a cheap car that runs well. I never had been a BMW guy, but sitting more than halfway through my E39 build, I've got to say, I am nearly 3 grand under where I would have been (including vehicle purchase), and have enjoyed it every step of the way. 

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The LT1s were a bit more pricey than the Mustangs/Cobra, but we felt a bit more comfortable with the Mustang build so stuck with it. 

As with any of the V8's, the F-bodies are going to take a penalty every single race of at least 20 points or 2 laps based on fuel capacity. This is why I disagree vehemently with these supposed "artificially low" VPI claims made by some for the American V8 cars. At Sebring next week, we will take a two pit stop penalty, equal to FOUR laps or FORTY points of VPI. But to some, that's not enough. 

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57 minutes ago, SC-WildWest said:

Regarding the F-body discussion:

I wanted to go with a 3rd gen or 4th gen F-body originally. I grew up with them. I originally thought a 88-92 305 TPI (LB9) 5 spd (the higher HP LB9) would be a nice starting point and maybe better fit than L98 with a trans swap. Looked at Lt1 4th gens but I am much more familiar with 3rd gens. I still think a solid worked up LB9 3rd gen would be a great car in the series. Years ago I had a 92 Formula-350, loved that car.

 

The only reason I didn't go this direction... Finding a suitable car at a reasonable cost in my area. Even beat to heck f-bodies are going for good money and I didn't want to basically restore a car or undo a ton of stupid mods someone did. E36, E46, and E39's BMWs... Easy to find a cheap car that runs well. I never had been a BMW guy, but sitting more than halfway through my E39 build, I've got to say, I am nearly 3 grand under where I would have been (including vehicle purchase), and have enjoyed it every step of the way. 

our 84 L69 Trans Am we bought running driving for $800, the 88 WS6 5 speed we bought running driving for $1200. Both could have been daily drivers. Here's the 88 as bought.  BTW I love my E39 sport 6 speed, but the car is heavy and is not on the VPI. You can find E39's in good shape for about 3k. thumbnail_WP_20180127_12_09_51_Pro.jpg.3820d48703d19048f2ddd59e0fae4e18.jpgblackbrd.jpg.5c00519bfb670db494d46e180291ecc1.jpg

Edited by TiredBirds
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17 minutes ago, Snorman said:

 At Sebring next week, we will take a two pit stop penalty, equal to FOUR laps or FORTY points of VPI.

 

I gather this rule is not always followed, but 40 pts should be 6 laps at Sebring.

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2 hours ago, Grufton said:

 

I gather this rule is not always followed, but 40 pts should be 6 laps at Sebring.

Right...there is a 1.5 multiplier. We've been running mostly 7 and 8 hour races this year so forgot about that. 

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10 hours ago, TiredBirds said:

our 84 L69 Trans Am we bought running driving for $800, the 88 WS6 5 speed we bought running driving for $1200. Both could have been daily drivers. Here's the 88 as bought.  BTW I love my E39 sport 6 speed, but the car is heavy and is not on the VPI. You can find E39's in good shape for about 3k. thumbnail_WP_20180127_12_09_51_Pro.jpg.3820d48703d19048f2ddd59e0fae4e18.jpgblackbrd.jpg.5c00519bfb670db494d46e180291ecc1.jpg

Guess in Phoenix the market is different, granted every car is pretty much rust free, lol. I paid $750 for my E39 528i. The M52B28 E39 5-spd is 450 points. So I have some room, not much, but at least something. 

 

Still wish I had my 'bird. But that is a long story involving an ex-wife! But, $750 for a solid no major problem E39 has me happy! (I need to take more current pictures of it) as a lot of progress has been made this this pic.

 

 

92bird.jpg

20200718_193536.jpg

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On 10/30/2020 at 7:44 AM, TiredBirds said:

Don't get me wrong our 305 runs very well, It might have that but I don't know. The 88 has lower compression than the L69 we had before. With the head work we did it might be around 9.3:1. I have no doubt with a set of pistons it'd be well over 325.  Maybe I'll take it to a shop and dyno it...if we can ever get it finished.  eng1.jpg.2fadf8a6755ff4b949e9e8e2395ea1de.jpg

Is that a Gen1 SBC intake drilled for those heads?

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