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2 minutes ago, 67Mustang said:

Yeah, not sure how I feel about the compete wide body kit, but you'd have to mark out the added sq ft of material I would think.

 

Huh? that is in interesting thought really, very creative.  But there was no claim for an oil cooler for the trans or diff.  I would have thought if they did that it would be to run the oil to the cooler for one of those two items. unless they use the heater core lol

I also didn't think you could claim that you repurposed something and then add another one.  I can't repurpose the shett metal from my hood to use for other things and then put a new hood on it!!!

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Good morning folks.  I had a great discussion with Mike Chisek and Bill Riley yesterday.  I knew that the TAC was working on about 5 or 6 additional cars that need revalued on the VPI list so for 2021

My story.  I'm not one for protesting.  Have never done it. I also understand that post race tech, whether protested by a team or discovered by tech, illegal is illegal.  When I am asked to withdraw m

Just to be clear.  Nobody is upset with GBU for building the car or how the team is or drives.  We are upset with how the series handled teching and point association with this car, both pre and post

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Just now, MoparBoyy said:

 

i meant the rear spoiler.  that only came on a special edition 78 PaceCar Corvette (along with different front aero)

 

I asked tech about this in impound as well as a few other items after receiving some FB messenger messages from Champcar teams not at the event. Tech said they had looked into this and it came on 5k+ cars thus making it not a special model. 

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Just now, red0 said:

 Tech said they had looked into this and it came on 5k+ cars thus making it not a special model. 

 

WOW... just WOW.  the complete bending of the rules is insane.

 

So now BMW guys can run all the M ground effects?, i mean, they make a lot of M cars.

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Just now, red0 said:

 

I asked tech about this in impound as well as a few other items after receiving some FB messenger messages from Champcar teams not at the event. Tech said they had looked into this and it came on 5k+ cars thus making it not a special model. 

To contrast other recent rulings - my car was stated by Chisek to be a 'special model' and I got additional points assigned.

A total number of around 10,000 Altima SE-Rs were built.

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1 minute ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

i meant the rear spoiler.  that only came on a special edition 78 PaceCar Corvette (along with different front aero)

 

I get you, yeah, with that C3 range it is a slippery slope when mixing and matching body panels etc..

 

Wasn't there a thread about some BMW being allowed to use a special edition front spoiler for free a year or so back? 

3 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:

Some rules of note here:

"9.5.2. Each car entered must have a minimum of SIXTY PERCENT (60%) of the total ORIGINAL body work and panels on the car."

"9.5.4. Body panels significantly supported or held solely in-place by fabricated tubular, sheet metal and/or other forms of fabricated framework or brackets shall be charged for the materials associated with this structure. Body panels must maintain their original placement, shape and profile without the aid of other supporting brackets, rods, tubes or frames."

 

I buy that, but I'd say you have to look at it as you would any other car with flares added for the 60%. As far as mounting, I wasn't there ( as you so aptly pointed out) but I'd bet those Kit's used the OEM mounts for the most part if not completely. If you have other info on that, I am all ears.  

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16 minutes ago, red0 said:

 

Normally if a protest is accepted the race director has the ability to decide if the car will be placed in EC or the value of the items gets added on to the finish by laps. 

This wasn't the case as the protest was not accepted by tech because the 5+ bars and 10' of tubing used to build an entire front sub structure tying the cage to the frame to the suframe etc. was considered a 'strut bar'. 

The laps were not given to GBU on Saturday, but were added on top of the MOV for Sunday as some sort of after the fact re-evaluation for Sunday. 
 

But the protest and the added points weren't for the same thing at all.

 

The added points was for the pulleys and some extra steel for supporting the body.

 

The protest was for the front tubes.

 

Also, I believe the rule says dq or ec, not laps added.  Imma go check...

 

Edit: dq, ec, or laps added is all possible with a protest.

Edited by wvumtnbkr
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Bottom line, 150pts for a corvette is laughable. It just took someone with enough money/time to build one out to show us how damn fast it was. Needs a base points adjustment at the very least IMO

 

Pre 1980 Corvette 150pts

Pre 1980 Porsche 928 425pts 

 

Seriously think about that lol.

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6 minutes ago, Gkuhn41 said:

Bottom line, 150pts for a corvette is laughable. It just took someone with enough money/time to build one out to show us how damn fast it was. Needs a base points adjustment at the very least IMO

 

Pre 1980 Corvette 150pts

Pre 1980 Porsche 928 425pts 

 

Seriously think about that lol.

 

I asked someone (don't remember who) on the TAC about that the day the reduction from 500 to 150 came out.  Was told to expect a sizeable adjustment back up as soon as somebody built a sledgehammer out of one.  We'll see if that happens or not...

Edited by karman1970
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3 minutes ago, Gkuhn41 said:

Bottom line, 150pts for a corvette is laughable. It just took someone with enough money/time to build one out to show us how damn fast it was. Needs a base points adjustment at the very least IMO

 

Pre 1980 Corvette 150pts

Pre 1980 Porsche 928 425pts 

 

Seriously think about that lol.

Well, to be clear, that car stock  would have gotten it's butt stomped at 150 points.  It took all those 500 points to get it to where it's at.  Some would argue 500 plus a few points right?  I don't think it makes sense to suggest a C3 should be worth 425 points now.  I mean, C4's are not really competitive right now are they. and a stock C3 chassis is way less capable than a C4 chassis, stock for stock.

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9 minutes ago, Gkuhn41 said:

Bottom line, 150pts for a corvette is laughable. It just took someone with enough money/time to build one out to show us how damn fast it was. Needs a base points adjustment at the very least IMO

 

Pre 1980 Corvette 150pts

Pre 1980 Porsche 928 425pts 

 

Seriously think about that lol.

 

I would want to know very certainly that every component inside that engine was indeed stock that is supposed to be before I would consider supporting a base VPI increase.  Stock oil pan?  Stock flywheel? stock crank, rods and pistons?  I don't want VPI jacked with unless CC knows those parts are absolutely stock.  Otherwise it's a system fail to hypothetically be able to raise VPI due to one teams result without knowing if they could have actually cheated considerably.  My opinion only.

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14 minutes ago, 67Mustang said:

I buy that, but I'd say you have to look at it as you would any other car with flares added for the 60%. As far as mounting, I wasn't there ( as you so aptly pointed out) but I'd bet those Kit's used the OEM mounts for the most part if not completely. If you have other info on that, I am all ears.  

If you knew something from firsthand experience racing in champcar, I'd be all ears Dennis.

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It’s pretty clear that Champcar doesn’t have an issue with this car.  Tech clearly could have handed out points for about a dozen things even without a protest.  

It’s also pretty clear that there is a lot of people that have an issue with the car.  

 

May I suggest a possible solution? Make a list of the potential infractions on here and the next time the C3 shows up to race, multiple people protest it.  It only costs $50 and Tech can only ignore or BS their way around so many things.  

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Just now, Slugworks Paul said:

If you knew something from firsthand experience racing in champcar, I'd be all ears Dennis.

 

Nice, I bet that makes you feel real big.  I am happy for you. Say what you need to say if it makes you feel good.  You never know maybe you'll get an opportunity to buy me a beer one day.

 

Sounds like you don't care to know what was or was not actually in that engine that nobody bothered to challenge.

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12 minutes ago, 67Mustang said:

Well, to be clear, that car stock  would have gotten it's butt stomped at 150 points.  It took all those 500 points to get it to where it's at.  Some would argue 500 plus a few points right?  I don't think it makes sense to suggest a C3 should be worth 425 points now.  I mean, C4's are not really competitive right now are they. and a stock C3 chassis is way less capable than a C4 chassis, stock for stock.

The balance is to assign a VPI that allows the car to be developed to be competitive in the series. 

When the car comes with 24 gallons of fuel, choice of V8's, choices of transmissions and decades of development in racing, it's probably not reasonable to assign a VPI so low that the entire body can be replaced with a Greenwood widebody kit, the IRS can be upgraded to the next generation hardware and the entire engine can be rebuilt for still under 500 points. 

Just IMO

 

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27 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:

To contrast other recent rulings - my car was stated by Chisek to be a 'special model' and I got additional points assigned.

A total number of around 10,000 Altima SE-Rs were built.

 

 

The rules are not the same for everyone.   Its pretty clear.  

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4 minutes ago, Snorman said:

The balance is to assign a VPI that allows the car to be developed to be competitive in the series. 

When the car comes with 24 gallons of fuel, choice of V8's, choices of transmissions and decades of development in racing, it's probably not reasonable to assign a VPI so low that the entire body can be replaced with a Greenwood widebody kit, the IRS can be upgraded to the next generation hardware and the entire engine can be rebuilt for still under 500 points. 

Just IMO

 

 

That I agree with. My point is you would not have to add much for it to be effectively ruled completely out of contention. 

 

My concerns are two: 1) The 50 pt IRS swap and 2) Are the engine internals really stock as they are supposed to be.

 

I well know you might have changed your design path if you thought you could have gotten the 03 or what ever Cobra IRS for  50 points.  And it would help your car.  Not sure if you have points to do it but it's now an option.

Second, if we don't know what was really in that engine, then VPI considerations are irrelevant.

 

Again, just  my "troll" "no experience" opinion.

 

I'll pose the same question to you as I did to Luckykid, would you be ok with a car running those lap times but with 12-14 gal of fuel?

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3 minutes ago, 67Mustang said:

 

I'll pose the same question to you as I did to Luckykid, would you be ok with a car running those lap times but with 12-14 gal of fuel?

Capacity is only relevant with respect to the cars burn rate. The relevant data is stint length. A miata with 12-14 gallons is different than a corvette with 12-14 gallons. So, rephrase with what you actually mean as far as stint length goes. 
Like xx lap times with 120 minute fuel stint vs. yy lap times with 80 minute fuel stint, or whatever point you were making. 

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6 minutes ago, 67Mustang said:

 

 

I well know you might have changed your design path if you thought you could have gotten the 03 or what ever Cobra IRS for  50 points.  And it would help your car.  Not sure if you have points to do it but it's now an option.

 

 

 

 

This question was asked and answered and published in the tech desk Jan. 2020.   It was not valued at 50 points, you had to add everything up.   That rule is now changed and IRS is 50 points. 

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4 minutes ago, 67Mustang said:

I'll pose the same question to you as I did to Luckykid, would you be ok with a car running those lap times but with 12-14 gal of fuel?

My initial response would be yes. Or even if it had slightly more fuel. But this car has a 24 gallon OE fuel tank and can hold 26 gallons with a cell and more with the surge, filler, vent lines, etc.. The series has always relied on fuel limitations as sort of an inherent way of keeping speed (meaning relative to an entire endurance race, not a single lap) in check. This car throws that out the window. We can run pretty fast, but not ridiculously fast, and make up for the extra fuel stops with good strategy. Our VPI allows us enough leeway to do that because we can improve the car. This car can run as long or longer (I honestly think the car is probably nowhere near out of fuel at 1:35-1:40) and much faster than us. And it starts at half the VPI. 

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8 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Capacity is only relevant with respect to the cars burn rate. The relevant data is stint length. A miata with 12-14 gallons is different than a corvette with 12-14 gallons. So, rephrase with what you actually mean as far as stint length goes. 
Like xx lap times with 120 minute fuel stint vs. yy lap times with 80 minute fuel stint, or whatever point you were making. 

We should only be worried about Laps/distance over 8 hours figuring in 5 min pit stops as needed. Lap times and HP don’t need to be looked at in isolation.  
 

High HP and a relatively small tank can be fair competition. 
 

On the flip side... Im still waiting for someone to make a diesel go three stints, eliminating the 5 min for refueling. Just do 90 sec stops for driver changes. 

Edited by Chris Shay
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2 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Capacity is only relevant with respect to the cars burn rate. The relevant data is stint length. A miata with 12-14 gallons is different than a corvette with 12-14 gallons. So, rephrase with what you actually mean as far as stint length goes. 
Like xx lap times with 120 minute fuel stint vs. yy lap times with 80 minute fuel stint, or whatever point you were making. 

I was going to try and put some thoughts together, but Sean beat me to it.  That's basically what I was getting at.

4 minutes ago, Snorman said:

My initial response would be yes. Or even if it had slightly more fuel. But this car has a 24 gallon OE fuel tank and can hold 26 gallons with a cell and more with the surge, filler, vent lines, etc.. The series has always relied on fuel limitations as sort of an inherent way of keeping speed (meaning relative to an entire endurance race, not a single lap) in check. This car throws that out the window. We can run pretty fast, but not ridiculously fast, and make up for the extra fuel stops with good strategy. Our VPI allows us enough leeway to do that because we can improve the car. This car can run as long or longer (I honestly think the car is probably nowhere near out of fuel at 1:35-1:40) and much faster than us. And it starts at half the VPI. 

Cool, finally someone states it in a reasonable fashion. Thanks Sean.  I agree with your presentation. But as I stated, I would want to know for sure, that it was completely withing the rules before bumping VPI..

I think he did do more than 1:40 on the second to last stint, closer to 1:50 without looking the times up. Either way. lot of fuel.

 

 

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The problem isn't the exploitation of the grey areas in the rules or teams pushing the absolute limit of the rules, it's the rules themselves. There are far too many free parts and everything that actually has an assigned point value is low enough that it becomes easy to build a car like this when you have the knowledge, time and money. 

 

 When you don't have to worry about using a single point on handling or braking you can use your 350 points focusing on horsepower to overcome any handling limitations you may encounter keeping in mind that race springs, shock valving, brake calipers, bushings etc are completely free from points (a whopping 10 points for Wilwood brake kits that are over the 2x limit). 

 

The spirit of the series is a memory so distant that I think I may have imagined the whole thing. Give me a race like Gingerman where the top twenty cars are within a second and a half of each other the whole weekend over a race like Indy any day of the week.  

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3 minutes ago, 67Mustang said:

I was going to try and put some thoughts together, but Sean beat me to it.  That's basically what I was getting at.

Cool, finally someone states it in a reasonable fashion. Thanks Sean.  I agree with your presentation. But as I stated, I would want to know for sure, that it was completely withing the rules before bumping VPI..

I think he did do more than 1:40 on the second to last stint, closer to 1:50 without looking the times up. Either way. lot of fuel.

The VPI doesn't balance this car. It's way too low for a car with 24 gallons of fuel. The series bumped the T-bird by 50 points because it led a few laps at Sebring a few years ago. It's 100 points higher than the C3 and the Corvette carries 4 more gallons. 

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5 minutes ago, Chris Shay said:

 

On the flip side... Im still waiting for someone to make a diesel go three stints, eliminating the 5 min for refueling. Just do 90 sec stops for driver changes. 

Never gonna happen. Diesels are lauded for efficiency in street applications only because gasoline engines are very inefficient in street applications. In a race environment the gasoline engine is operating in its most efficient window (WOT all the time) and so the difference between diesel and gas is quite small. A diesel will still be more efficient but it won’t be 200% more efficient... closer to 20% if I had to guess. 

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