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Just now, Snorman said:

The VPI doesn't balance this car. It's way too low for a car with 24 gallons of fuel. The series bumped the T-bird by 50 points because it led a few laps at Sebring a few years ago. It's 100 points higher than the C3 and the Corvette carries 4 more gallons. 

 

Yep, Understood.  Any Cougars top results since then or even close?

I'd also argue the Cougar as a chassis starting point with it's four link rear is a lot better than the stock C3.  What was the base vpi on the 79 TA that won Utah last year? 150 points I think?  Granted it didn't blow the field away, but I think it came with a 20 or 21 gal tank similar to the Cougar.  I hear yeah, and agree with the intent as well.

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Good morning folks.  I had a great discussion with Mike Chisek and Bill Riley yesterday.  I knew that the TAC was working on about 5 or 6 additional cars that need revalued on the VPI list so for 2021

My story.  I'm not one for protesting.  Have never done it. I also understand that post race tech, whether protested by a team or discovered by tech, illegal is illegal.  When I am asked to withdraw m

Just to be clear.  Nobody is upset with GBU for building the car or how the team is or drives.  We are upset with how the series handled teching and point association with this car, both pre and post

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3 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Never gonna happen. Diesels are lauded for efficiency in street applications only because gasoline engines are very inefficient in street applications. In a race environment the gasoline engine is operating in its most efficient window (WOT all the time) and so the difference between diesel and gas is quite small. A diesel will still be more efficient but it won’t be 200% more efficient... closer to 20% if I had to guess. 

Good info. I think it’s still possible if you swap a small diesel into a 24 ish gal car. The 4 cylinder BMW and Porsche 944 can already go two stints on some tracks. 

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4 minutes ago, 67Mustang said:

 

Yep, Understood.  Any Cougars top results since then or even close?

I'd also argue the Cougar as a chassis starting point with it's four link rear is a lot better than the stock C3.  What was the base vpi on the 79 TA that won Utah last year? 150 points I think?  Granted it didn't blow the field away, but I think it came with a 20 or 21 gal tank similar to the Cougar.  I hear yeah, and agree with the intent as well.

The Cougar is an SRA, so not sure I agree. The entire rear suspension needs to be reworked to be effective. The 4-link in the Fox body cars was designed in the mid-70's and on the Mustangs in '79. And I definitely don't agree since a C4 IRS can be swapped into a '78 220 hp L82 4-speed Corvette with 24 gallons of fuel and it's a 200 point car. 

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Just now, Snorman said:

The Cougar is an SRA, so not sure I agree. And I definitely don't agree since a C4 IRS can be swapped into a '78 220 hp L82 4-speed Corvette with 24 gallons of fuel and it's a 200 point car. 

Well, the 50 pt IRS monkey wrenches a lot of stuff I do agree on that.

 

Assuming the engine internals were really OEM stock and the 50 point IRS swap stands, I could see 200 instead of 150. I still think there are unanswered questions about that engine that no one wishes to discuss.  I guess I'll just leave it at that.

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1 minute ago, 67Mustang said:

Well, the 50 pt IRS monkey wrenches a lot of stuff I do agree on that.

 

Assuming the engine internals were really OEM stock and the 50 point IRS swap stands, I could see 200 instead of 150. I still think there are unanswered questions about that engine that no one wishes to discuss.  I guess I'll just leave it at that.

When you are at your next race and they are in impound, you can protest them to find out.  Its not fair to assume they are cheating with no basis.  

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5 minutes ago, 67Mustang said:

Well, the 50 pt IRS monkey wrenches a lot of stuff I do agree on that.

 

Assuming the engine internals were really OEM stock and the 50 point IRS swap stands, I could see 200 instead of 150. I still think there are unanswered questions about that engine that no one wishes to discuss.  I guess I'll just leave it at that.

Top end of the engine is what makes all the power. Good Pistons, rods and crankshaft add durability way more than power. They already claim heads, cam and intake. That’s where all the hp is coming from. 

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2 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

When you are at your next race and they are in impound, you can protest them to find out.  Its not fair to assume they are cheating with no basis.  

 

Careful, the basis of that statement is that I would want to know for sure it is within the rules before VPI is pushed. That's all.  It was not my intention to come across as saying they are cheating.  If you don't know one way or another what is inside an engine it's not reasonable to assume either way. I get the nothing verified part, fine. It could be fine, in fact I hope it is really.  I'm honestly happy something that old won a race.

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9 minutes ago, 67Mustang said:

Well, the 50 pt IRS monkey wrenches a lot of stuff I do agree on that.

 

Assuming the engine internals were really OEM stock and the 50 point IRS swap stands, I could see 200 instead of 150. I still think there are unanswered questions about that engine that no one wishes to discuss.  I guess I'll just leave it at that.

Is there a way to inspect the internals in impound? Easy stroke check? Some kind of bore check? Are aftermarket pistons visibly different and inspectable with a camera scope thing?

(genuinely curious because I expect to race against them at Road America)

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1 minute ago, mcoppola said:

Top end of the engine is what makes all the power. Good Pistons, rods and crankshaft add durability way more than power. They already claim heads, cam and intake. That’s where all the hp is coming from. 

 

I don't disagree, I think that's an 8.9:1 engine to start with.  Assuming smaller bowls on the AL heads, and thinner gaskets, you get a bump in CR.  But how much did they spin it?  how much can a stock bottom end take?  Fair questions.

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2 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Is there a way to inspect the internals in impound? Easy stroke check? Some kind of bore check? Are aftermarket pistons visibly different and inspectable with a camera scope thing?

(genuinely curious because I expect to race against them at Road America)

Drop the pan but that is a pain and risks dirt and crap in someones engine. But you would know if you had a GM crank and rods and should be able to see the underside of the pistons. I admit, from a cleanliness point of view I'd have issue with that being done to my engine.

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8 minutes ago, 67Mustang said:

Well, the 50 pt IRS monkey wrenches a lot of stuff I do agree on that.

 

Assuming the engine internals were really OEM stock and the 50 point IRS swap stands, I could see 200 instead of 150. I still think there are unanswered questions about that engine that no one wishes to discuss.  I guess I'll just leave it at that.

 

The engine would be the least of my worries.  You can build a completely legal SBC with plenty of power. A factory L82 with a 25 point set of headers will make north of 300hp at the crank.  Not 100% sure, but the research I did says all L82s had forged rotating assemblies their entire production run.  Add heads, intake, and a cam to that...  I think unclaimed oiling upgrades would be the only hidden thing to maybe look for.

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11 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Is there a way to inspect the internals in impound? Easy stroke check? Some kind of bore check? Are aftermarket pistons visibly different and inspectable with a camera scope thing?

(genuinely curious because I expect to race against them at Road America)

The used a bore scope on all cars in impound Day 1 at COTA. I'm not sure what they found as never heard any more about it other than they were taking pictures of the pistons. We have a stock rebuild so not an issue for us. 

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15 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Is there a way to inspect the internals in impound? Easy stroke check? Some kind of bore check? Are aftermarket pistons visibly different and inspectable with a camera scope thing?

(genuinely curious because I expect to race against them at Road America)

 

Didn't a car get DQ'd recently based on displacement/stroke check?   Seems as though it can be checked then.  

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We should start a new thread with a list of things that are now open coming out of this weekend (since the tech desk isn't really turning out to be what it was designed for).


I'll start with my shopping list:
-Alternator upgrades and mounts
 

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13 minutes ago, Snake said:

 

Didn't a car get DQ'd recently based on displacement/stroke check?   Seems as though it can be checked then.  

I was asking specific to this engine. M20 bmw engines cannot be easily stroke checked even if tech wanted to. If this is an overhead plug engine, then it should be able to be checked for stroke, and that’s what I’m asking. 
(my lack of v8 knowledge should now be very clear!! Haha)

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Summary on posts to this point. 

 

1. VPI of 150 points for the C4 is low. re: originally 500 points & 24 gallons of fuel. Big tank cougar is 100 points more. 

2. Whole suspension swap for 50 points is new ruling and problematic. 

3. Valve train not claimed. Is it OE with the upgraded cams? How high was it reved?

4. Lots of questionable material values. 

5. Are strut tower bars bolt in or is welded to the cage ok? re: rule books suggests to the cage is not allowed. 

 

Point 1 seems like the easiest to fix. Probably the root cause of the problem here; VPI is insane. 

 

Point 2 & 5 could be addressed via tech desk confirmations. 

 

Point 3 & 4 require resolution at track impound. 

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1 hour ago, 67Mustang said:

Well, to be clear, that car stock  would have gotten it's butt stomped at 150 points.  It took all those 500 points to get it to where it's at.  Some would argue 500 plus a few points right?  I don't think it makes sense to suggest a C3 should be worth 425 points now.  I mean, C4's are not really competitive right now are they. and a stock C3 chassis is way less capable than a C4 chassis, stock for stock.

No kidding it wouldnt be. My point is the disparity in between the two.

 

A K Car is 150 points.

An astro van is 150 points.

Oh and a V8 corvette with 24 gallons oem is also 150 points. You choose one to build.

 

Anyone who looks at that car and the result of the race day 1 OR 2 after MOV laps and says "yep all good" is not looking at the best interest of the long term health of our series.

 

We can be adults about it, address it and they may have to take a number of points for some grey area shenanigans a value increase whatever is needed to make a real race out of it and move on.

 

This isnt a jump in speed creep if this is the new standard to meet. This is a quantum leap leaving EVERYONE behind. 

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2 minutes ago, Gkuhn41 said:

 

 

We can be adults about it, address it and they may have to take a number of points for some grey area shenanigans a value increase whatever is needed to make a real race out of it and move on.

 

 

One of my sticking points is just to make sure any perceived grey area shenanigans are cleared up and dealt with before value is increased.

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5 minutes ago, Gkuhn41 said:

No kidding it wouldnt be. My point is the disparity in between the two.

 

A K Car is 150 points.

An astro van is 150 points.

Oh and a V8 corvette with 24 gallons oem is also 150 points. You choose one to build.

 

Anyone who looks at that car and the result of the race day 1 OR 2 after MOV laps and says "yep all good" is not looking at the best interest of the long term health of our series.

 

We can be adults about it, address it and they may have to take a number of points for some grey area shenanigans a value increase whatever is needed to make a real race out of it and move on.

 

This isnt a jump in speed creep if this is the new standard to meet. This is a quantum leap leaving EVERYONE behind. 

 

If a Corvette is 150pts a Porsche 911 should be 150 pts as well.

 

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Personally i think the VPI is the problem.  They built a car exploiting the rules to the fullest extend.  But, if the VPI was 250 the speed would not be possible.  I'm sure @National Tech will address the situation.  But, to be fair, it will take time to make VPI changes.  They will be able to win a few more races before it gets smacked down.  Best shot at getting them in tech would be to protest the valve train.  Are springs, lifters, and push rods included with the points being claimed for the heads?

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