Jump to content

Good Bad and Ugly Discussion.


Recommended Posts

6 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

Just wait until they can run way better dampers with next years rules. 

 

Why would you need to adjust the damper if it is already valved close to optimal? I doubt what they are running is very bad.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 587
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Posts

Good morning folks.  I had a great discussion with Mike Chisek and Bill Riley yesterday.  I knew that the TAC was working on about 5 or 6 additional cars that need revalued on the VPI list so for 2021

My story.  I'm not one for protesting.  Have never done it. I also understand that post race tech, whether protested by a team or discovered by tech, illegal is illegal.  When I am asked to withdraw m

Just to be clear.  Nobody is upset with GBU for building the car or how the team is or drives.  We are upset with how the series handled teching and point association with this car, both pre and post

Posted Images

40 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

Understood. My feeling is the points for the added hp make sense, as the point cost for cam, intake, and TB was 150 total. But only 50 for an entire rear suspension swap?

Did the rear suspension only contribute 25% to the additional performance and the engine mods account for 75% of the performance/lap time improvement I’ve stock?

 

there is more than rear suspension. you get a free diff and axles too!  C3 is all steel where the C4 is all alumnium, thats a bunch of weight savings and a lighter rotating mass.

 

as far as the 'TAC' looking into this its honestly a joke.  the question was asked to the TAC and the same tech guy who made up the rule at the track is the one answering the TAC questions.  so much for checks and balances.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

If a Corvette is 150pts a Porsche 911 should be 150 pts as well.

 

It's galled me from day one that every old 911 was valued at 750 points whether it was a 2.0L or a late 3.0L lol.  Those early cars would be fast but honestly, the top cars in CC would be every bit as fast.  Either way, the cost of old 911's makes it meaningless either way.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, 67Mustang said:

It's galled me from day one that every old 911 was valued at 750 points whether it was a 2.0L or a late 3.0L lol.  Those early cars would be fast but honestly, the top cars in CC would be every bit as fast.  Either way, the cost of old 911's makes it meaningless either way.

haha yes, like $80k.

BUT 350z are allowed? The 1999 911 (996) are about the same performance level, and they are cheap! (if you ignore the cost of potential engine failure, #lsswap911)

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Lethal Cliff said:

 Best shot at getting them in tech would be to protest the valve train.  Are springs, lifters, and push rods included with the points being claimed for the heads?

 

i believe those are all included with the heads.   it doesnt matter when tech just blows off your questions anyways.  they already said the car gets free aero even though it never came on the car,but it did come on the special edition.

 

I guess you can run any parts off special models now if they 'made enough of them'

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Chris Shay said:

We should only be worried about Laps/distance over 8 hours figuring in 5 min pit stops as needed. Lap times and HP don’t need to be looked at in isolation.  
 

High HP and a relatively small tank can be fair competition. 
 

On the flip side... Im still waiting for someone to make a diesel go three stints, eliminating the 5 min for refueling. Just do 90 sec stops for driver changes. 


I’ve tried many times, my team keeps shooting down my build plans.  Lol

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

as far as the 'TAC' looking into this its honestly a joke.  the question was asked to the TAC and the same tech guy who made up the rule at the track is the one answering the TAC questions.  so much for checks and balances.

Who are you referring to?

 

Are you confusing the TAC with the tech desk?

 

The TAC is a sub committee made up of, I think, 7 technical person's who advise the board and to some degree advise tech as well.

 

The board and tech are not obliged to listen to the TACs recommendations.  

  • Thanks 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

there is more than rear suspension. you get a free diff and axles too!  C3 is all steel where the C4 is all alumnium, thats a bunch of weight savings and a lighter rotating mass.

 

as far as the 'TAC' looking into this its honestly a joke.  the question was asked to the TAC and the same tech guy who made up the rule at the track is the one answering the TAC questions.  so much for checks and balances.

Yes, I agree, there's a lot more than 50 points there in a rear IRS swap. I also made some mistakes on engine VPI items and deleted the post quoted above.

As far as the TAC comment - I deleted some of my thoughts on this, but I will say that: We DO discuss issues that affect parity and safety. As @Burningham has stated previously, not all of our recommendations make it into the BCCR - we are an advisory committee. (Or see @wvumtnbkrRob's post above.)

A fairly well known fact that can be arrived at from looking a the VPI tables is that American Iron is undervalued. 

This is the biggest issue we see. A wholesale VPI change to correct this PARITY issue to all American Iron may be necessary as a correction, but will affect more than one team - even some who are complaining about the Corvette. Be careful what you ask for.  😁

Other issues, such as if the IRS swap is valued properly, can more easily be dealt with, as we constantly do in revising a rule set to encompass many different types and makes of cars.

It's not an easy balancing act about which and how many teams you are going to anger and dis-enfranchise in trying to achieve this parity,  but we keep trying. 

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

This is the biggest issue we see. A wholesale VPI change to correct this PARITY issue to all American Iron may be necessary as a correction, but will affect more than one team - even some who are complaining about the Corvette. Be careful what you ask for.  😁

 

Except all 'american iron' isn't the same.  You have many teams out there in mustangs, nobody is 10 laps up on the field.  I'd love to see the justification for raising the VPI on the Mustang & Camaro.  I'd like to think of us as a top level team when it comes to car build, prep and drivers.  The fact remains that we have never run up the score board like the Vette just did. We've run great races and have been beat twice this year by Miatas, Saabs, Altimas, etc.  The mustangs come with 15 gallon fuel tank vs the 21+ in the Vette.

 

Honestly currently i think the VPI on the Vette doesn't even matter.  There is so many points in that car that tech has overlooked its not even funny, on top of the 50 point IRS swap which is a complete joke.  Which means you could run Front and rear suspension of a C3 in a C4 and have a 250 point car with 'modern' suspension and brakes, a 350 cubic inch engine and 24 gallons of fuel.

45 points complete body change?

50 point complete rear suspension and drive line system change?

unclaimed aero

unclaimed metal for strength

unclaimed coolant bottle

unclaimed alternator bracket

unclaimed frame steel under the car

 

that is just what i can think of from looking at the pictures in this thread.

 

 

Edited by MoparBoyy
Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

A fairly well known fact that can be arrived at from looking a the VPI tables is that American Iron is undervalued. 

This is the biggest issue we see. A wholesale VPI change to correct this PARITY issue to all American Iron may be necessary as a correction, but will affect more than one team - even some who are complaining about the Corvette. Be careful what you ask for.  😁

 

I think the race results speak for themselves with respect to this comment. The series has done a pretty good job balancing VPI's. There are very clear and major hurdles to running an "American Iron" car including the 15 gallon tank ('79 and later Fox bodies and Gen 3 and 4 F-bodies), solid rear axle, heavy iron block V8 and inferior 1970's designed chassis. So despite being "undervalued", you don't see them dominating on a regular basis because they need a helluva' lot to be competitive. Rather, you see a pretty nice mix of cars on the podium and in the top 5. 

Right now, at this particular time, it's the first time since we've been in the series (2015) that there doesn't really seem to be a dominant platform. SC300s, E30s, Miatas, Mustangs, Altimas, Saabs, etc. all seem to be running for the top 5. Used to be it was just SC300s and BMWs. Admittedly, the E30s are disproportionately represented, but that's probably due to the sheer numbers of them. 

This isn't an American Iron issue. This is a single platform (C3) that was severely undervalued. The C4 is 450 points. But I think another issue here is how the rules are being interpreted relative to this car. 

  • Like 7
  • Thanks 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, turbogrill said:

 

what would the benefits with the alternator bracket?

 

durability.  the same reason you pay points for oil coolers or an accusump

Edited by MoparBoyy
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

durability.  the same reason you pay points for oil coolers or an accusump

I strongly suspect that is a smaller racing style alternator, judging by rough scale.

Then again - as we're always told 'if it didn't come on the car it's points' - so the question of 'why?' and 'what benefit?' may have a bearing on the exact number of points but doesn't give you the freedom to add/upgrade things without declaring it.

Edited by Slugworks Paul
  • Like 6
Link to post
Share on other sites
53 minutes ago, mcoppola said:

This is the biggest issue we see. A wholesale VPI change to correct this PARITY issue to all American Iron may be necessary as a correction, but will affect more than one team - even some who are complaining about the Corvette. Be careful what you ask for.  😁

 

34 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

Except all 'american iron' isn't the same.  You have many teams out there in mustangs, nobody is 10 laps up on the field.  I'd love to see the justification for raising the VPI on the Mustang & Camaro.  I'd like to think of us as a top level team when it comes to car build, prep and drivers.  The fact remains that we have never run up the score board like the Vette just did. We've run great races and have been beat twice this year by Miatas, Saabs, Altimas, etc.  The mustangs come with 15 gallon fuel tank vs the 21+ in the Vette.

 

Honestly currently i think the VPI on the Vette doesn't even matter.  There is so many points in that car that tech has overlooked its not even funny, on top of the 50 point IRS swap which is a complete joke.  Which means you could run Front and rear suspension of a C3 in a C4 and have a 250 point car with 'modern' suspension and brakes, a 350 cubic inch engine and 24 gallons of fuel.

45 points complete body change?

50 point complete rear suspension and drive line system change?

unclaimed aero

unclaimed metal for strength

unclaimed coolant bottle

unclaimed alternator bracket

unclaimed frame steel under the car

 

that is just what i can think of from looking at the pictures in this thread.

 

 

 

19 minutes ago, Snorman said:

 

I think the race results speak for themselves with respect to this comment. The series has done a pretty good job balancing VPI's. There are very clear and major hurdles to running an "American Iron" car including the 15 gallon tank ('79 and later Fox bodies and Gen 3 and 4 F-bodies), solid rear axle, heavy iron block V8 and inferior 1970's designed chassis. So despite being "undervalued", you don't see them dominating on a regular basis because they need a helluva' lot to be competitive. Rather, you see a pretty nice mix of cars on the podium and in the top 5. 

Right now, at this particular time, it's the first time since we've been in the series (2015) that there doesn't really seem to be a dominant platform. SC300s, E30s, Miatas, Mustangs, Altimas, Saabs, etc. all seem to be running for the top 5. Used to be it was just SC300s and BMWs. Admittedly, the E30s are disproportionately represented, but that's probably due to the sheer numbers of them. 

This isn't an American Iron issue. This is a single platform (C3) that was severely undervalued. The C4 is 450 points. But I think another issue here is how the rules are being interpreted relative to this car. 

Thanks for reminding me why I don't comment here as often - I still read everything, but am better off keeping my foot out of my mouth. 

@MoparBoyyand I PM'ed. I know his comment was not a dig against the TAC. My comment about low American Iron VPI was me remembering a recent TAC conversation where it was pointed out that some of these V8 cars have similar size fuel tanks, and a ton more hp than the slew of econobox 4 cylinder cars were were comparing to eachother - all of which had higher VPI's than the V8 cars. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:

I strongly suspect that is a smaller racing style alternator, judging by rough scale.

Then again - as we're always told 'if it didn't come on the car it's points' - so the question of 'why?' and 'what benefit?' may have a bearing on the exact number of points but doesn't give you the freedom to add/upgrade things without declaring it.

Aftermarket alternator is 5 points.  Bracket is material points. 

TechDesk 8MD-R6U-YE1Y

  • Like 4
  • Sad 1
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Ronh911 said:


I can’t find this ticket, was it specifically for you?  

Yup.  I have about half a million tickets.  If your responses from tech are slow, its my fault.

  • Like 2
  • Haha 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

We raced against the Corvette at the VIR24.  I told Bill S. before the race started that as long as the Corvette didn’t break no one was going to touch it.  It is FAST in a straight line(braking and Corning are average)  In my 5.5 years in Champcar the only car I’ve seen faster on the track with us was the 991 GT3 cup car at the Utah24. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Yup.  I have about half a million tickets.  If your responses from tech are slow, its my fault.

Would you mind sending me a copy?  I was told alternators and starters were 10 points each. 

Edited by Ronh911
  • Sad 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

I watched some of it unfold and took notes and asked some questions. I was just a driver for this race and we had issues so I was working on pulling a motor when impound started and walked over. I was told a protest has been made on the Riley Vette. I looked over the cars and the Riley Vette as I do to try to steal ideas for my own cars. The 2nd place Purple Miata really impressed me with how clean and nice the build was, great job guys on it.  The vette was a very nice build, we can all see that. I liked a bunch of items and took some notes for the future. Reclined seat to keep it low and the pedal box moved as the seat was stationary. Being a short guy I was like, heck yah, brilliant.

 

I took notes on what I saw and asked others, as I barley know my car most of the time and I am not expert on other brands, yet some things were there that I questioned.

 

I brought up my list to Ray and Jay on Sunday morning and here is basically what they said and my understanding now.

 

Roll bars up front- Strut or shock tower brace is 10 points and on their logbook. I personally thought a strut tower bar to be a bar that went from one strut tower to the other and was one bar. As they explained it to me it was legal as it was a bolt in shock brace and the number of bolt in places and number of bars used does not matter. I did not know that and my assumption is what I was wrong about I guess. I asked, since my engine is a mid engine if I could make a strut tower brace that extends in between the two rear struts, an X to the go forward to the roll cage and bars down in the back to the rear frame rails. I would have 6-10 bolted in pickup points and be legal at 10 points. In this case I think I just did not think about exploiting the rules here and usually I can see loopholes in the rules. I give them a golf clap on that one and we will need to address this to add points for it as it clearly strengthens the entire front chassis beyond what a strut bar is intended to do. I think it could still be legal, it just needs more than 10 points though. Maybe X points based on number of bars or something. We can let TAC figure all that out with all the options of cars out there, does not sound fun for them though.

 

I put the alternator on my list as it looked very small and my thinking is that it would take less hp to turn, so it gains performance and also it adds reliability so I assumed it would be a non oe part and have points added that I did not see on their sheet. They said that alternators are free and that tiny lightweight starters are free also. OK. They have a Bosch motorsports Alternator BO, I am not sure the cost as my google search listed orileys for me and clearly not correct.

 

Alt billet bracket. I had on my list as materials at least. Nope, goes with the alternator. OK, that makes sense then I guess.

 

I asked about the pulleys as they did not look stock. Jay asked me if I had part numbers and know they are not stock. I said I do not as I do not know the platform that well, but they sure do not look like stock 78 vette to me. He said he would look into it though.

 

I saw square tubing up front and asked the team about it. They said it holds the fender in place. I was like yes, but it still needs points and brought that up. 

 

They had a really cool looking steering box, maybe power steering, aftermarket I would think based on the bracket. I thought that might be zero based on driver comfort though, but it was noted.

 

The rear end adjustable suspension points? I see in post that is part of the 50 point IRS system. If that is what it is then OK. I asked about the materials to adapt it all up, but again, maybe that is all part of the 50 points. I am not sure if their are heim joints or not on that setup and what comes stock, in some pictures it looks like it and some not so not sure on that.

 

I asked about the TB and that made sense to me. TB cost is 25 points from a carb setup. Injectors are free, ecu free, wiring free, fuel lines and pumps free. So you can go from carb to fuel injection TB for 25 points assuming you use a fuel injection TB. If you used lower intake manifold and fuel injection I guess you would need to add the lower manifold for points also, whatever that might be. So the cheap way to get fuel injection.

 

I put the distributor on the list to check as I heard someone say it is aftermarket and performance distributor. I was not sure on it and again Jay asked me if I had a part number and again I said no as I do not know the platform. I was thinking it would be 20 points for ignition system. He said he would check on that also.

 

I asked about the 78 pace car rear wing and they said that since it was an option from the manufacture and not a dealership add on it was fine. I was thinking if it just added graphics and a rear spoiler then it does not really matter. That convertible open exposed cage will destroy the air flow for that wing thing anyway. Though when I looked it up it shows that is has more hp, yet is that really relevant anyway since they have such extensive engine mods? My thought is if the base model has X hp and a special model has Y hp shouldn't the Y one be a higher VPI? Or is a case where everyone runs the Y model so the vpi is automatically adjusted for that model.  That is like Schrodinger's cat question.

 

I do give Jay credit as he listened and explained to me and went to Riley prior to the race Sunday to question the items I brought up. He worked with the rules that he had and the protest that was put forth, my understanding is it had only one item on it.  He did add points for items and they got laps for them on what was not declared or missed. I think they started 12 laps down on Sunday and almost won. I give them credit for making up that many laps and pushing to get to 2nd.  Personally I think that is a much better placement to be proud of and battle to the end. It was exciting watching them get close and exciting to see the look of pure stress no Tyler's face for the last two hours of the race. I do not think he stood still for 2 seconds and just kept on pacing. BTW- Great job Tyler.

 

I think two things are the big items that made me go hmm. On the engine it has fuel injection, cams, cylinder heads. I heard through the paddock that is makes 390rwhp and also 370rwhp and weights in at 2700lbs. The closing rate is pretty insane. I was in the middle of the long front straight and saw them come up, stayed to the left and pointed to the right. He blew by me, went to turn one were there were 4 cars, give or take, one got out of line to go to the inside of turn one and vette just about creamed the heck out of them and had to dive way inside and was 3 wide. I was like, holy crap this is not going to end well, but lucky it all came out clean. I did see damage on the front and heard they did rear end a miata.  I could see that happening as a side mirror only sees so far, so you look right, see no one close, get out of the draft to go inside and a car that is going 30-40mph faster is there. BAMM.

 

The other item was the tires. They went through at least 6 tires in Saturday I am told as they were swapping out at least two in at least one stop. They are $420 a piece. 12x420 is $5040. Their tire cost is more than my entire weekend racing budget and gives them an insane advantage. We need to really address the changing of tires during a race weekend and the faster tires.

 

Just my 2 cents and observations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 10
  • Thanks 7
Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

 

 

The other item was the tires. They went through at least 6 tires in Saturday I am told as they were swapping out at least two in at least one stop. They are $420 a piece. 12x420 is $5040. Their tire cost is more than my entire weekend racing budget and gives them an insane advantage. We need to really address the changing of tires during a race weekend and the faster tires.

 

Just my 2 cents and observations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I really like the idea of a tire limit of some sort. What tire were they running?  

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

So alternator and starters are free now.  Cool.  More free stuff.

 

I love the interpretations and how they are constantly making the field faster for absolutely no reason.

 

How hard would it be to adapt an original style alternator with stock type bracket?

 

It's the little things that add up that is greatly annoying....

  • Like 5
  • Thanks 4
  • Confused 1
  • Sad 3
Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

So alternator and starters are free now.  Cool.  More free stuff.

 

I love the interpretations and how they are constantly making the field faster for absolutely no reason.

 

How hard would it be to adapt an original style alternator with stock type bracket?

 

It's the little things that add up that is greatly annoying....

 

Is there an unwritten rule that ChampCar is only allowed to use the word "no" a certain number of times a year?  Good grief.

  • Like 3
  • Haha 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...