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Good morning folks.  I had a great discussion with Mike Chisek and Bill Riley yesterday.  I knew that the TAC was working on about 5 or 6 additional cars that need revalued on the VPI list so for 2021

My story.  I'm not one for protesting.  Have never done it. I also understand that post race tech, whether protested by a team or discovered by tech, illegal is illegal.  When I am asked to withdraw m

Just to be clear.  Nobody is upset with GBU for building the car or how the team is or drives.  We are upset with how the series handled teching and point association with this car, both pre and post

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If only they ran flat out would we really get to see the performance of the car.....

 

Cautions messed up their strategy at Indy or they would have won both days. There is a reason they have "65%" plastered on the dash

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3 minutes ago, jakks said:

If only they ran flat out would we really get to see the performance of the car.....

 

Cautions messed up their strategy at Indy or they would have won both days. There is a reason they have "65%" plastered on the dash

I doubt they are running the car anywhere near flatout. Not even close. 

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7 minutes ago, Snorman said:

I doubt they are running the car anywhere near flatout. Not even close. 

I am not sure how flat out they have run. On sat they did a high 1:55 and sun a 154 flat, so 2 seconds a lap faster. They knew they had to make up the 12-13 laps and were trying. I do not think they were holding much back.

 

I know they passed right before going into turn 7. I felt I had that section pretty dialed in and was catching people by car lengths through there, using no brakes, I used all the curbs and tires at the limit. They braked similar to the miata, which does very well, had similar corner speed throughout the section and just pulled away once on the gas. The car has no weakness that I see. The biggest hp to weight in the field, great brakes, good cornering and the biggest gas tank in the field. I do think if they did not run those tires they would not be as fast. Run a set of 285/30/18 RS4 and I bet they are 4-5 seconds a lap slower.

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Tech can't even be consistent with their own rules interpretations.   What a joke.   Another new rule change for this team, that makes 4 now.  Honestly, I don't put most of this on the team.   It's the series job to enforce the rules and currently they are changing them around on whim.     

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2 minutes ago, Snake said:

Tech can't even be consistent with their own rules interpretations.   What a joke.   Another new rule change for this team, that makes 4 now.  Honestly, I don't put most of this on the team.   It's the series job to enforce the rules and currently they are changing them around on whim.     

Steering Column question was pre tech desk.

I am going to ask now though.  That's a heavy spot on the Miata. 

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Just now, LuckyKid said:

Steering Column question was pre tech desk.

I am going to ask now though.  That's a heavy spot on the Miata. 

 

I'm referring to the alternator/bracket rule interpretation which you have documented.    If they changed their minds on steering columns, that will be 5. 

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6 minutes ago, Snake said:

 

I'm referring to the alternator/bracket rule interpretation which you have documented.    If they changed their minds on steering columns, that will be 5. 

CCES should charge for all tech desk rulings after your first three.  They could use that money for somebody to help keep up and keep it organized.  I know how much I bug them and I can only imagine if 20 other teams did the same thing. I could understand how it would be hard to keep straight.

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17 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

CCES should charge for all tech desk rulings after your first three.  They could use that money for somebody to help keep up and keep it organized.  I know how much I bug them and I can only imagine if 20 other teams did the same thing. I could understand how it would be hard to keep straight.

 

or.... they could be consistent.  It's really not that hard.     Years ago I suggest pulling the fixed parts list out of the BCCR and making it its own living document that was easily updated.   The BCCR would still reference it but it would be it's own document.  The BOD could add things to that list as they voted on them and then there would be zero confusion.    But, here we are.   Hopefully for not much longer though.   

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16 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

CCES should charge for all tech desk rulings after your first three.  They could use that money for somebody to help keep up and keep it organized.  I know how much I bug them and I can only imagine if 20 other teams did the same thing. I could understand how it would be hard to keep straight.

Haha.  I like that.

 

Also, if they just said no to weird interpretations, it wouldn't be hard to keep up.

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Can someone fill me in on how part of this works.

 

Team builds a car. Shows up. Wins. Another team protests something and it is deemed "Not the correct item(s) being protested". Nothing changes.

 

Overnight those items are now included added laps to Sunday.

Why is something that is caught to and because the 'wording' or phrasing is wrong the protest is not upheld. This doesn't make any sense. I get self policing but this is just another car in the line of many cars over the history of CCES or ChumpCar or whatever you want to call it that the self policing is just grounds for cheating. I remember teams had burned out piles of crap listed as CoPart/Craiglist ads that everyone knew could not "Drive on to a trailer" yet they somehow were allowed to be included in setting your cars value...

If something is found during a protest even if it not the exact item/part/words/phrasing/etc should equal a DQ. How does the guy that got 2nd place feel? "Well damn we won actually but someone didn't protest the right stuff but the car was cheating/rules lawyering/whatever you want to call it".

Edited by dinanm3atl
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3 hours ago, Snorman said:

I doubt they are running the car anywhere near flatout. Not even close. 

 

I'm friends with a driver that was with them at VIR. The predictive optimal lap time and what they turned for a fastest lap at VIR were only about a second apart. The "predicted" lap was run on their test day with no traffic. They struggled with some issues on the test day so I do believe it's possible that the car is being raced at least a couple seconds off its true potential.

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I believe there is 2 topics going on simultaneously:
1. A professional and well funded team built an amazing race car!
2. They bent the rules so hard it now resembles a pretzel. :)

 

We'd all dump more money into our hobby if we had the funds to do so. The rules are written from the prospective of an average Joe income. The well funded teams tend to shine a light on areas of the rules that need addressing. And the 350 team knocked it out of the park Roger Clemens!

* An unpopular suggestion to stop the arms race: Buy Out Rule. Set a value for $10,000, and have some qualifying restrictions that only teams in the event that finished XX% of the race could file a buy out protest. At that moment, it would be hands off the car! All request for part removal would be at the conducted by the buying team. And if the team that received the claim would reject it, that particular car (not the team) would be banned from CC for X years.

 

I picked $10k as an example number, but according to Champcar: "ChampCar is for people that have always wanted to go racing without all of the hassles, huge rulebooks, or obscene expense." So $10K seems to fit well within that obscene cost area. Our car has a couple D class wins, I'd take 10K in a heartbeat! (I'd be sad to see it go, but we could build a sweet C3 with that $10K! LOL!!!)

 

Which BTW. This platform looks like an amazing one to start on, with the ladder frame chassis. Dang, why did settle on the Camaro :P
1346338560668.jpg

 

This reminds me of the "Vettecart" roadkill did a while back. Strip away the body and cage it!

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16 minutes ago, Mike.g said:

 

I picked $10k as an example number, but according to Champcar: "ChampCar is for people that have always wanted to go racing without all of the hassles, huge rulebooks, or obscene expense." So $10K seems to fit well within that obscene cost area. Our car has a couple D class wins, I'd take 10K in a heartbeat! (I'd be sad to see it go, but we could build a sweet C3 with that $10K! LOL!!!)

Nope. Just nope. My crappy multicolored NA Miata has more than $10k in it plus labor plus love. Nobody wants that claimed nonsense. 
 

Moral of all this story is just to enforce all the rules equally, then adjust VPI once/twice a year for equality, and call it a day. 

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So much entertainment in this thread.

 

13 hours ago, LuckyKid said:

False!  Fuel consumption would kill the miata with a turbo or supercharger.    We currently can only do about 1:38 at Road America.  We ran all the calculations and we are faster NA when you calculate for the extra stop, or two at Road America.  

This was all tested with actual fuel calculations and Optimum Lap software.  We had an MP45 kit we were planning to add fall of 2019 for the RA race.

 

False!  Turbo Miata blistered a cheater 2 hour 24 gallon Griggs Mustang, might want to re-run your calcs.  Remember when some fast eastern teams like Tuttle came west for the Sonoma Champs and the best they ran was 1:52 then everyone was gloating the east is fastest?  Nobody came close to the turbo Miata 1:48.

 

If TAC is going to reconsider the Vette for four seconds then for the same 4 seconds they may want to also reconsider the turbo rule before somebody in the east decides to give it a go... in a region that matters.

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11 minutes ago, cowboys647 said:

Nope. Just nope. My crappy multicolored NA Miata has more than $10k in it plus labor plus love. Nobody wants that claimed nonsense.

Good point, but I will ask this. Isn't Champcar is meant to be affordable? But what defines affordable? Is spending over 10K on any car too much? Teams that show up in a rented U-haul vs a team in a semi will have a different answer.

I'm sure over time most teams will spend over 10k in maintenance and upgrades. But the idea is that a new build should be under 10k. I'm not disrespecting your amazing build. I'm pointing out that we've all been doing, dumping more money into our cars to keep competitive. The idea with the buy out rule, teams have a spending line to not go far past, otherwise they risk losing their car.

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13 hours ago, mender said:

As a professional engine builder I'd like to take a look under the valve covers to see what kind of valve train they're running. Pretty sure it won't resemble OEM stuff. Also, part numbers on the heads, intake, carb; you know, so we can see if they came from a car that is on the VPI list. 

 

Nice of tech to drop the nominal exhaust manifold points, I see they're still using the wrong parts there but now without any penalty. 

 To me the heads look like GM "Fast Burn" aluminum heads....and all that those mean (@$1,000 per head).    

Edited by TKRiggs
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7 minutes ago, TKRiggs said:

 To me the heads look like GM "Fast Burn" aluminum heads....and all that those mean (@$1,000 per head).    

It says 'best with flat top pistons'. 

First... What is the engine in that vette?? Is there an engine code and displacement or something??

Second... the engine in the vette, are the stock pistons flat top? That seems easy to tech with a scope. Is that what you were implying with "...and all that those mean"?

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10 minutes ago, enginerd said:

It says 'best with flat top pistons'. 

First... What is the engine in that vette?? Is there an engine code and displacement or something??

Second... the engine in the vette, are the stock pistons flat top? That seems easy to tech with a scope. Is that what you were implying with "...and all that those mean"?

Flat top pistons (not saying the car had these), beehive valve springs, small combustion chamber...I'm implying these are quite the performance head.  I'm assuming it was an RPO L98 (small block 350) with 220hp and 260lb-ft from the factory.  But those heads will fit on anything from a 283 up to 400ci (according to the link in my first post).

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8 hours ago, Mike.g said:

I believe there is 2 topics going on simultaneously:
1. A professional and well funded team built an amazing race car!
2. They bent the rules so hard it now resembles a pretzel. :)

 

We'd all dump more money into our hobby if we had the funds to do so. The rules are written from the prospective of an average Joe income. The well funded teams tend to shine a light on areas of the rules that need addressing. And the 350 team knocked it out of the park Roger Clemens!

* An unpopular suggestion to stop the arms race: Buy Out Rule. Set a value for $10,000, and have some qualifying restrictions that only teams in the event that finished XX% of the race could file a buy out protest. At that moment, it would be hands off the car! All request for part removal would be at the conducted by the buying team. And if the team that received the claim would reject it, that particular car (not the team) would be banned from CC for X years.

 

I picked $10k as an example number, but according to Champcar: "ChampCar is for people that have always wanted to go racing without all of the hassles, huge rulebooks, or obscene expense." So $10K seems to fit well within that obscene cost area. Our car has a couple D class wins, I'd take 10K in a heartbeat! (I'd be sad to see it go, but we could build a sweet C3 with that $10K!

 

Absolutely 100% Hard NO.

 

Not all of us want to build 40 year old cars to go fast.

 

We chose a newer more expensive platform because we were all sick of the risk of tetanus, and scouring the internet for obscure replacement parts.  We have put countless hours and dollars into making the car look good and feel good (ergonomics).  It won't be an overdog, mechanically it's essentially stock.

 

Not to mention a buyout means an immidiate 6-10 month hiatus to racing.  I enjoy the build, but if I had to choose build or race, I choose race.  I wouldn't sell our new car for less than $20K.

 

A buyout rule would be an immediate end to ChampCar.  50+% of members would find somewhere else to go, and a new series would be created by someone.  It's a non-starter.  It's an unpopular opinion because it's a terrible idea.

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