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8 hours ago, Ron_e said:

If TAC is going to reconsider the Vette for four seconds then for the same 4 seconds they may want to also reconsider the turbo rule before somebody in the east decides to give it a go... in a region that matters.


Been there, done that. Remember the old, super harsh turbo rules before the current ones? You can thank myself and @red0. I've won in turbo cars I think 3-4 times now.

I'd do it again but I don't have a big name and a big budget so my investment would be relegated to yard artwork after a race or two. Lap times are easy. Winning an endurance race in such a thing is hard.

Edited by Slugworks Paul
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Good morning folks.  I had a great discussion with Mike Chisek and Bill Riley yesterday.  I knew that the TAC was working on about 5 or 6 additional cars that need revalued on the VPI list so for 2021

My story.  I'm not one for protesting.  Have never done it. I also understand that post race tech, whether protested by a team or discovered by tech, illegal is illegal.  When I am asked to withdraw m

Just to be clear.  Nobody is upset with GBU for building the car or how the team is or drives.  We are upset with how the series handled teching and point association with this car, both pre and post

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8 hours ago, Ron_e said:

So much entertainment in this thread.

 

 

False!  Turbo Miata blistered a cheater 2 hour 24 gallon Griggs Mustang, might want to re-run your calcs.  Remember when some fast eastern teams like Tuttle came west for the Sonoma Champs and the best they ran was 1:52 then everyone was gloating the east is fastest?  Nobody came close to the turbo Miata 1:48.

 

If TAC is going to reconsider the Vette for four seconds then for the same 4 seconds they may want to also reconsider the turbo rule before somebody in the east decides to give it a go... in a region that matters.

Power needs fuel.  Turbo power needs more fuel than NA power.  The miata has little fuel.  

Maybe in a 7hr race at a fuel friendly track.  We ran the numbers for Road America at an 8hr, but I believe it would hold for Road Atlanta and WGI as well.  Each pit stop adds about 2.2 seconds a lap at Road America.  Whats more the 100pts + radiator + oil cooler, removes your other go-fast parts so you need to be about 4 seconds faster at sub 200hp just to keep up with the NA car at the finish.  Over 200rwhp you need to be 6.2 seconds faster a lap just to keep up with the NA car but then you need an intercooler and you can't really do anything else so you need even more time to make up for the parts you tool off.  Then your trans and diff start taking a beating and you need coolers on those but you don't really have points left.

No doubt a turbo miata could put down some lightning times, but the numbers flip in a hurry.  

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9.5.3. Doors cannot be removed. All cars must have a door or “OEM equivalent” body panel. Doors do NOT need to open or be operative. Doors may be welded closed. Doors may be re-skinned, however, re-skinned panels must be covered with the same type, thickness and quality of material as originally presented by the manufacturer (no aluminum panels replacing steel panels). Doors shall, in general, match the shape and contour of the originally designed bodywork, including at least 75% of the original height, as measured upwards from base of the door line.

 

per this is says the doors cannot be reshaped, am i reading this correctly?

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8 hours ago, Mike.g said:

Good point, but I will ask this. Isn't Champcar is meant to be affordable? But what defines affordable? Is spending over 10K on any car too much? Teams that show up in a rented U-haul vs a team in a semi will have a different answer.

I'm sure over time most teams will spend over 10k in maintenance and upgrades. But the idea is that a new build should be under 10k. I'm not disrespecting your amazing build. I'm pointing out that we've all been doing, dumping more money into our cars to keep competitive. The idea with the buy out rule, teams have a spending line to not go far past, otherwise they risk losing their car.

Not entertaining claimer stuff, just pointing out something

 

Still would be sad to "sell" @ 10k as for 6k I should be able to duplicate or do better then we already have, the crime would be the thousands uncounted hours fretting over every little thing, it kind of forms a bond...pay for that and you got a deal!

 

Not only that, just as stated above, time to rebuild could take a year before seeing that team again.

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29 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Power needs fuel.  Turbo power needs more fuel than NA power.  The miata has little fuel.  

Maybe in a 7hr race at a fuel friendly track.  We ran the numbers for Road America at an 8hr, but I believe it would hold for Road Atlanta and WGI as well.  Each pit stop adds about 2.2 seconds a lap at Road America.  Whats more the 100pts + radiator + oil cooler, removes your other go-fast parts so you need to be about 4 seconds faster at sub 200hp just to keep up with the NA car at the finish.  Over 200rwhp you need to be 6.2 seconds faster a lap just to keep up with the NA car but then you need an intercooler and you can't really do anything else so you need even more time to make up for the parts you tool off.  Then your trans and diff start taking a beating and you need coolers on those but you don't really have points left.

No doubt a turbo miata could put down some lightning times, but the numbers flip in a hurry.  

I think at COTA one of the winning cars (miata) had an extra pit stop. But maybe everyone does that. Are you saying you would need 5 fueling stops?

 

And someone could rebuild the entire car after the race and just hope to survive 8 hours, maybe with some mega skills they can make it work.

 

Obviously this is top much work and money for most of us. 

 

We have a Miata at 160whp and are very fuel limited, we would like to have a cell but too much work.

A well funded team could add one and have a surge tank.

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22 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Power needs fuel.  Turbo power needs more fuel than NA power.  The miata has little fuel.  

Maybe in a 7hr race at a fuel friendly track.  We ran the numbers for Road America at an 8hr, but I believe it would hold for Road Atlanta and WGI as well.  Each pit stop adds about 2.2 seconds a lap at Road America.  Whats more the 100pts + radiator + oil cooler, removes your other go-fast parts so you need to be about 4 seconds faster at sub 200hp just to keep up with the NA car at the finish.  Over 200rwhp you need to be 6.2 seconds faster a lap just to keep up with the NA car but then you need an intercooler and you can't really do anything else so you need even more time to make up for the parts you tool off.  Then your trans and diff start taking a beating and you need coolers on those but you don't really have points left.

No doubt a turbo miata could put down some lightning times, but the numbers flip in a hurry.  

 

Turbo Miata did win over the cheater Mustang, Sonoma is not fuel friendly but it is Griggs' home track.  Fast laps and a fast win.

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20 minutes ago, Ron_e said:

 

Turbo Miata did win over the cheater Mustang, Sonoma is not fuel friendly but it is Griggs' home track.  Fast laps and a fast win.

Are you talking about Door Slammers?  They seem to pit at 40-42 laps at Sonoma where other miatas are pitting at lap 54.  Their best time is 11 seconds faster than the 3rd place finisher, Autospec, whom we seem to be about 12 seconds faster than at Road America.  I don't see anything compelling to imply our fuel estimates and Optimum Lap calculations were inaccurate.

Trust me, if we'd win more with a turbo, I would be the first to whip out my credit card and get the best freaking turbo we could.

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33 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

per this is says the doors cannot be reshaped, am i reading this correctly?

Actually, it says "doors shall, in general, match the shape and contour...."

 

I would say that "in general" they do.

 

Maybe i didn't look very hard, but it's obvious to me that it looks like a c3 vette....

 

 

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2 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

its like 6-8 inches wider than a C3 corvette.

IMG_20200704_111422.jpg

Is the Pacecar spoiler cut in the middle and expanded to match the new width? 

 
Is there a huge weight difference with the new body?  I couldn't see much of an advantage otherwise.

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Yep.  Moving it 3 inches per side still retains the general shape and contour to me.

 

If you took a stock door and moved it 3 inches, wouldn't it still retain the general shape and contour?

 

This is pointless anyway because if the rulings that were made stand, there is no way that anybody is going to split hairs about the shape of the doors...

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1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

Not only that, just as stated above, time to rebuild could take a year before seeing that team again.

A claimer rule is literally the worst idea ever. 

Clearly, these rules are meant for series where the cars are supposed to be close to identical

As has been said, it'll destroy the series almost immediately and 1/2 of the teams (including us) would leave. 

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33 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

Is the Pacecar spoiler cut in the middle and expanded to match the new width? 

 

 

looks like it, goes directly against the tech desk..  rules are only for the minions.

 

https://champcar.org/tech/knowledgebase.php?article=35

Edited by MoparBoyy
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17 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

looks like it, goes directly against the tech desk..  rules are only for the minions.

 

https://champcar.org/tech/knowledgebase.php?article=35

correct:

A.

The maximum width of a wing or splitter is determined by the OE body shape and not by any bodywork added to the car that makes it appear wider. In your case, you cannot include the new fender flares in your measurement and instead must measure from the OE steel fender dimensions.

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Is there a running tally of the rules that have been changed, bent, stretched or ignored recently? 

  1. IRS swap value completely changed from what was given to membership just a few months' prior (from a sum of the individual parts added to a flat 50 points)
  2. Racy Bosch Motorsports alternators and billet brackets are now free (were previously points plus material for bracket per PB Tech Desk ticket)
  3. Coolant expansion/fast bleed tanks are now free (teams were told they were 5 points)
  4. Aftermarket steering racks/boxes free? (C3s had a recirculating ball, Troy stated he saw a non OE steering box)
  5. Completely new definition of a "strut tower bar"

🤔

 

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2 minutes ago, red0 said:

correct:

A.

The maximum width of a wing or splitter is determined by the OE body shape and not by any bodywork added to the car that makes it appear wider. In your case, you cannot include the new fender flares in your measurement and instead must measure from the OE steel fender dimensions.

I had to cut my new wing (which I bought to match the new fender width) and splitter.  :(  

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10 minutes ago, Snorman said:

Is there a running tally of the rules that have been changed, bent, stretched or ignored recently? 

  1. IRS swap value completely changed from what was given to membership just a few months' prior (from a sum of the individual parts added to a flat 50 points)
  2. Racy Bosch Motorsports alternators and billet brackets are now free (were previously points plus material for bracket per PB Tech Desk ticket)
  3. Coolant expansion/fast bleed tanks are now free (teams were told they were 5 points)
  4. Aftermarket steering racks/boxes free? (C3s had a recirculating ball, Troy stated he saw a non OE steering box)
  5. Completely new definition of a "strut tower bar"

🤔

 

6. Exhaust manifolds that were 2 points last time but no points this time. New rule (made for them) doesn't come into effect until 2021.

7. Body held on substantially with tubes, brackets etc.

8. Rear wing wider than the original bodywork.

9. Retains 60% of the original body panels?

 

 

Edited by mender
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2 hours ago, mender said:

6. Exhaust manifolds that were 2 points last time but no points this time. New rule (made for them) doesn't come into effect until 2021.

*edit* it has been confirmed in subsequent posts that the exhaust manifolds are legal
 

1) this is using “ram horn” manifold, correct? Manifold barely visible in picture I saw.

2) “ram horn” didn’t come on the L82 corvette engine?

3) what rule is coming in 2021? I remember some rule about exhaust manifold being allowed from other cars on the VPI list for free but I thought this only applied to engine swaps to “make it work”. This was a compromise down from “run a free aftermarket header to make it work”. Maybe I misremembered. 

Edited by enginerd
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8 minutes ago, enginerd said:

1) this is using “ram horn” manifold, correct? Manifold barely visible in picture I saw.

2) “ram horn” didn’t come on the L82 corvette engine?

3) what rule is coming in 2021? I remember some rule about exhaust manifold being allowed from other cars on the VPI list for free but I thought this only applied to engine swaps to “make it work”. This was a compromise down from “run a free aftermarket header to make it work”. Maybe I misremembered. 

If this means opening up this concession/advantage from just swaps to all cars, i'm in favor (that is, if we have to have it to begin with..)

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While I like the idea of the tech desk, I imagine it would be extremely difficult to remember and enforce all the specific rulings that have been made over the year. I think the gap between tech ruling and BCCR implementation is the biggest thing to over come. In my mind, if it is not in the BCCR, tech should not assign points, but I know they like they're cover all clause..

 

4.3.3. ChampCar reserves the right to apply an additional point value to any component or part on this list that substantially increases the value and/or performance of the car

Edited by Wink
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