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GBU points for next time


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New class structure based on the rule year: 1. Class A: "the $500 car" class. 2013 rule book 2. Class B: "last of the Condren cars" class. 2015 rule book 3. Class C : "Pre-Riley era" cl

Here we do not see eye to eye...   What contributed to the success of the car and winning by X laps (we can say X=12 based on your post)?   1) huge budget given to long time IMSA c

I went from OE parts that came on the car to non OE parts that came on a different car, and took the points for it.  It shouldn't matter if there is a performance or reliability gain, non stock compon

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5 minutes ago, Final Turn Motorsports said:

I guess so.  I mean it is a direct bolt in to housing.

And also specifically allowed in the rules:

 

4.7.8. Rear-end gear-ratios are open to all OEM differentials available for that year, make, and model or chassis generaton (excluding specialty high-performance models not listed on the VPI table).

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23 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

That's a little different.  You went to a rack from a recirc ball setup.

I went from OE parts that came on the car to non OE parts that came on a different car, and took the points for it.  It shouldn't matter if there is a performance or reliability gain, non stock components should cost points.  It isn't like this is an engine swap and there just isn't room for the OE box where someone could claim they were forced to change it because of the engine they wanted to run, this was a decision to run a different steering box than came on the car.  That should be points.

 

Edited by bbaker480
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Right, and that is the point and the precedent drilled into our heads.

If that changes, fine, just make sure everyone knows about it and it's well communicated (in the rules, preferably). Much to your chagrin Rob, I can assure you it will lead to unexpected speed creep. People rarely swap things that don't have some direct or indirect, subtle or obvious benefit (even if just reliability and/or availability of parts). And 'reliability is speed' or so i'm told.

We've been over this before, many times, and it's a mantra repeated since the beginning of (champcar) time - "just because it fits doesn't mean you can install it without points"

 

Edited by Slugworks Paul
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As long as the points keep dropping you will see more cars like this. Our 1st race was in 2015. Our car was almost 480 points. Now the same car with more mods, oil pan, intake, carb, Bilsteins, ball joints and some other stuff is around 400. 

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29 minutes ago, Final Turn Motorsports said:

I guess so.  I mean it is a direct bolt in to housing.

You might want to check on the 3.90 as it was I believe only an option in the NB platform and thus would not be free to swap. You are correct it fits in the housing.

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8 minutes ago, Slugworks Paul said:

Those who are concerned about speed creep and things becoming free or reduced points should be VERY concerned about the events of last weekend.

Or just say F it and make the jump to WRL. We can put a set of aluminum heads and cam in the car, go to an IRS and race in GP1 at pretty much all the tracks we race with Champ. Class based racing, sure, but we don't have to worry about this garbage (just other garbage, lol). 

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1 hour ago, Team Infiniti said:

It came with, and still has, a recirculating ball box, the method of power steering may have changed from piston ram assist, to a more modern, conventional box mounted spool valve/internal power assist, but believe power still comes from a conventional, engine mounted pump.   What Im trying to say, there is likely no gripe with this conversion, look elsewhere if unhappy about something seen.

 

 

1 hour ago, wvumtnbkr said:

That's a little different.  You went to a rack from a recirc ball setup.

Can’t believe that you two are advocating for free parts here. I’m echoing what some others said here... if it isn’t stock, it’s points, end of story.

 

Can I replace an engine with a different engine for free as long as they both use pistons and burn gasoline?

 

There is a reason behind that steering box change, if it is different than stock (I don’t know sheet about vettes). Perhaps it is more robust than the original one and is capable of turning those 315mm grippy tires, whereas the stock one may break? Perhaps it has a different ratio? Regardless, it’s not OE (if it isn’t OE). 

Edited by enginerd
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@enginerd

Free stuff? knowing what I know, I may be liberal in this situation, not sure non power steering would really slow em, might be one of those things that I shrug off, ignore

 

Stock box is fine & reliable... ratio? no actual clue, but being corvette its likely got a decent ratio (or a decent ratio is a 0pt option) the piston assist system is a mess even in street use, it prob would do the job but @ risk of oiling down the track.

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9 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

@enginerd

Free stuff? knowing what I know, I may be liberal in this situation, not sure non power steering would really slow em, might be one of those things that I shrug off, ignore

 

Stock box is fine & reliable... ratio? no actual clue, but being corvette its likely got a decent ratio (or a decent ratio is a 0pt option) the piston assist system is a mess even in street use, it prob would do the job but @ risk of oiling down the track.


An oil cooler won't give me any speed and will reduce me risking oiling down the track when I ventilate my engine.

0 points now?

Dude, you contradict yourself in your own post. You say stock is fine and reliable but risks oiling down the track? That doesn't seem reliable to me. Don't we charge for reliability upgrades just like speed upgrades? I thought that was the thing in champcar (my opinion aside.. just going by prevailing governing rules)

Edited by Slugworks Paul
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44 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

@enginerd

Free stuff? knowing what I know, I may be liberal in this situation, not sure non power steering would really slow em, might be one of those things that I shrug off, ignore

 

Stock box is fine & reliable... ratio? no actual clue, but being corvette its likely got a decent ratio (or a decent ratio is a 0pt option) the piston assist system is a mess even in street use, it prob would do the job but @ risk of oiling down the track.

 

Same crappy box as used from the 60's and used in Fords as well, All my 60's Mustangs use the same box.  What sucks about those systems too is the geometry of the arms etc. The power steering add on the factories used  is a bit messy to say the least.  For the Fords, there were a couple of ratios used in the boxes and the power steering did have a quicker ratio, less turns lock to lock, so that would be desirable. Well at least it would be to me as I have always updated my cars to use the PS ratio boxes and removed the PS hardware.  Yes, those old piston assist systems leak more than a 50 year old South Bend Lathe as well.  It never bothered me after having removed the PS from those cars.  Mostly only helps your grandma turn the wheel in a parking lot.  That said, the wider those fronts get, the more effort it takes to turn em even at speed so it's easily doable without but with would aid in limiting fatigue.. But what do I know...

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2 hours ago, Slugworks Paul said:

Right, and that is the point and the precedent drilled into our heads.

If that changes, fine, just make sure everyone knows about it and it's well communicated (in the rules, preferably). Much to your chagrin Rob, I can assure you it will lead to unexpected speed creep. People rarely swap things that don't have some direct or indirect, subtle or obvious benefit (even if just reliability and/or availability of parts). And 'reliability is speed' or so i'm told.

We've been over this before, many times, and it's a mantra repeated since the beginning of (champcar) time - "just because it fits doesn't mean you can install it without points"

 

I was actually arguing that Bryan can't just change it (without points) based on This current situation if the free stwering box stands.  Just pointing out that the situation is different because he also changed type of steering...   ...which I think we ALL agree should be points (so should changing the box in this case)

 

Edit to further clarify:  no free stuff.  Enforce the bccr as written.

Edited by wvumtnbkr
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1 hour ago, Final Turn Motorsports said:

Which is why I have the 4.10 in the car. I want the 3.9

Ohhh.  I thought you qere saying the auto car in your same platform had the 3.9, which would be totally legal to swap to.

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All this talk about the power steering box. What am I missing?

 

4.3.2 - Fixed Point Value List

  • Power Steering Components - 0 pts

 

The only potential hit for a power steering component is 10 pts if you convert to an electrical system (next line item on the list). Pretty much anything else in the power steering system, be it the rack, pump, lines, hell maybe even a cooler - is a "component" and at least by my read, free. 

 

When you combine this with the free driver comfort items just about everything between the steering wheel and the tie rods is (arguably?) open and free.

 

I submitted a ticket asking about deleting the rubber steering guibo using either an aftermarket solution or parts from another model and was told it was zero points. Not sure if that one's in the knowledge base yet.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, gavro said:

All this talk about the power steering box. What am I missing?

 

4.3.2 - Fixed Point Value List

  • Power Steering Components - 0 pts

 

The only potential hit for a power steering component is 10 pts if you convert to an electrical system (next line item on the list). Pretty much anything else in the power steering system, be it the rack, pump, lines, hell maybe even a cooler - is a "component" and at least by my read, free. 

 

When you combine this with the free driver comfort items just about everything between the steering wheel and the tie rods is (arguably?) open and free.

 

I submitted a ticket asking about deleting the rubber steering guibo using either an aftermarket solution or parts from another model and was told it was zero points. Not sure if that one's in the knowledge base yet.

 

 

I don't think you are missing anything. 

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12 minutes ago, gavro said:

All this talk about the power steering box. What am I missing?

 

4.3.2 - Fixed Point Value List

  • Power Steering Components - 0 pts

When did that get added?

 

Also, I want to know what was meant by “components”. Is a PS rack with faster ratio which was never offered in the street car a “component”?

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Just now, enginerd said:

When did that get added?

 

Also, I want to know what was meant by “components”. Is a PS rack with faster ratio which was never offered in the street car a “component”?

I concur, that is news to me, and my steering rack was powered, so is it therefore a power steering component? Would it be zero points? Would it need to be powered to be zero points? Where do the free parts stop?

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1 minute ago, enginerd said:

When did that get added?

 

Also, I want to know what was meant by “components”. Is a PS rack with faster ratio which was never offered in the street car a “component”?

 

I believe it was added sometime in the last year and I relied on it when swapping out our stock rack for a quicker E46 unit. Not even afraid to put this out there.

 

I cannot fathom a broader term than "component," so yes, go ahead and use whatever power steering rack your heart desires.

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1 hour ago, enginerd said:

When did that get added?

 

Also, I want to know what was meant by “components”. Is a PS rack with faster ratio which was never offered in the street car a “component”?

I took 40 points for the 2001 TA WS6 fast ratio ps rack that I put in the Fiero in 2014. The value dropped to 10 points in I think 2016 when it was considering a suspension component, then argued to being driver comfort (not by me but I felt better) for zero points shortly thereafter. 

The electric assist issue prompted the latest rule wording. 

 

My suggestion and the reason for this thread is to find out what it should have had for points, then adjust the VPI to get to 610 points total, the amount needed to give it 11 penalty laps and bring it in line with the rest of the field. 

Edited by mender
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you guys are arguing about a steering box in a car with a complete aftermarket body on it, not a set of fender flares AN ENTIRE AFTERMARKET BODY.  How many points is that?

 

image.png.bf5a56a45cf35f8f26230f627f3c7f11.png

 

image.png.c62c35d8db2bab44c3729c7e461cb119.png

Edited by MoparBoyy
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21 minutes ago, mender said:

My suggestion and the reason for this thread is to find out what it should have had for points, then adjust the VPI to get to 620 points total, the amount needed to give it 12 penalty laps and bring it in line with the rest of the field. 

Here we do not see eye to eye...

 

What contributed to the success of the car and winning by X laps (we can say X=12 based on your post)?

 

1) huge budget given to long time IMSA car builder / IMSA team runner / 24 hr of LeMans winner / etc. etc.  I think highly of my fellow champs but if we think our cars are prepped to the level that he has with this car, we are probably mistaken (did anyone else see the mention of a suspension shaker rig on Facebook??) This will be (A)

2) use of several sets of rival-s tires (totally legal) that gave them an advantage over other teams. This is (B) 

3) Average driver skill. Perhaps better than the other top Champ teams, perhaps worse? Impossible to quantify. This is (C)

4) lastly, unclaimed or improperly claimed / valued items that should have resulted in laps. This is (D)

 

In a somewhat handwaving sense, what you wrote is D = 12 laps. Or put into words, his entire margin of victory should be washed away in a VPI adjustment because that would make things fair.

I think it should be something more like A + B + C + D = 12 where D only accounts for some of the margin, and A B C should not be overlooked.

 

Also don’t forget that some of the mods could be removed without much of affect on their performance and are probably just on there because “why not, we have spare points”. Facebook was full of antagonistic posts saying “you didn’t get creamed because of some frame stiffening” and “they could remove that part and it wouldn’t do anything to slow them down”.


Basically, you can’t move the VPI on this car so much that it would become impossible for a ‘normal top tier team’ to campaign one.

Edited by enginerd
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