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I want to start a discussion on the tires, quantity and cost that GBU uses and see if we could come up with a rule solution.

 

I think a big part of the GBU speed is due to the tires because of the size and grip level. They use 335 wide Rival S 1.5 and if we compare that to a 285/30/18 RS4 I would expect the lap times to be 3-5 seconds a lap slower with the RS4.  I do not know of anyone else, besides Salheens, that can afford to spend $5,000-6000 a weekend on tires alone and have like $10,000 in tires and wheels sitting there waiting to be used. I am pretty sure I have seen them having 4 full sets of tires and rims in the pits ready to go. I do think if they used the RS4 they could still win, but would have to put effort in to win it much more than they do now.

 

Thoughts on ideas? We could apply some or many of these.

1- Leave it as is. If a team wants to spend money let them. 

2- Limit tire changes in the pits to not allowed unless tire failure.

3- If a tire change happens make the team take time, 5 minutes (Or other) per tire.

4- If a team starts with certain specific tires (we will make a list- re71r, toyo RR, Rival S 1.5, etc) of tires they take laps.

5- Tire sizes above X get laps. 135-235 = 0, 245-265 = 1, 265-285 = 2, 295-305 = 3, 315-325 = 4. 335+ = 5 (we can adjust as needed, but that might be ok)

6-  If a team changes a tire then they get X amount of laps per tire changed.

7-

9-

 

That is what I thought of off the top of my head real quickly. I personally like the idea of 3, 4 and 5  or 4, 5 and 6.

 

PS- I feel like Mender starting a topic that I think is going to get some peoples panties all bunched up. I wonder if he rubs his hand together real quickly when he hits submit and says to himself, watch this.

 

 

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The "hung up on winning a trophy" statement that comes out occasionally is really tiring.  What's the point of any undertaking in life if you don't want to compete with the best on an equal footing an

Why do we need a rule for this.  Can’t a phone call stop this?     Mike Chisek = MC Big Spender = BS   ring....ring...   BS  Hello MC  Hi, this is MC with

If dont want re71r in the series, just don't let it in the series.   I like the idea of a list of allowable tires.

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Maybe point 2 makes sense.

WRL has rules for it:

Tire Changes in the hot pit are restricted as follows.

  1.  Only one tire tool or one impact wrench allowed in the hot pit (excluding torque wrench).
  2.  Only manually operated floor jacks may be used.
  3.  Only two wheels may be lifted off the pavement at a time.
  4.  A total of 5 tires may be in the hot pit at any given time, including tires mounted on the car

You can still change a broken tire but not 4 tires in 20seconds with your pro crew. 

WRL also generally have more expensive builds than Champcar, so it's interesting they have this rule.

 

We run  1-2 sets of RE71r a weekend, they are good in wet, easy to drive and fast on track. It's about $100-$200 extra per person for the weekend than a cheaper tires. I used to be cheap with tires but it just sucks if your old tires get toast during the race. I already spend a fortune on babysitters and time off from work...

 

 

 

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I would say that While the tires contributed to the success but that was not the biggest issue. 

 

For reference I run a 275 Re71r on 3400 Lb 500 Hp Mustang in AER, We have found this tire to be faster than many larger sized tires (295 and 315 A052, 295 Rs4 ect)

1 minute ago, turbogrill said:

Maybe point 2 makes sense.

WRL has rules for it:

Tire Changes in the hot pit are restricted as follows.

  1.  Only one tire tool or one impact wrench allowed in the hot pit (excluding torque wrench).
  2.  Only manually operated floor jacks may be used.
  3.  Only two wheels may be lifted off the pavement at a time.
  4.  A total of 5 tires may be in the hot pit at any given time, including tires mounted on the car

You can still change a broken tire but not 4 tires in 20seconds with your pro crew. 

WRL also generally have more expensive builds than Champcar, so it's interesting they have this rule.

 

We run  1-2 sets of RE71r a weekend, they are good in wet, easy to drive and fast on track. It's about $100-$200 extra per person for the weekend than a cheaper tires. I used to be cheap with tires but it just sucks if your old tires get toast during the race. I already spend a fortune on babysitters and time off from work...

 

 

 

 

I can easily still change all 4 tires with that rule. 

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I hate to see limitations on tires, even though we are not one of those teams that regularly runs RE71's, A052's, etc. and mostly run RS4's. 

But of course there is always somebody who has to come along and **** it up for everybody else by going completely over the top. 

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3 minutes ago, the5 said:

I would say that While the tires contributed to the success but that was not the biggest issue. 

 

For reference I run a 275 Re71r on 3400 Lb 500 Hp Mustang in AER, We have found this tire to be faster than many larger sized tires (295 and 315 A052, 295 Rs4 ect)

 

I can easily still change all 4 tires with that rule. 

 

Not every one as the grip strength to remove lug nuts by hand. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Snorman said:

I hate to see limitations on tires, even though we are not one of those teams that regularly runs RE71's, A052's, etc. and mostly run RS4's. 

But of course there is always somebody who has to come along and **** it up for everybody else by going completely over the top. 

 

For AER to run at the front of Class 5 we had to go from 2 Sets of Rs4's a weekend which we would sell to get money back (Net cost around $1000) 

To using 5 sets of Re71r At the eye watering cost of Increasing our tire budget five fold. 

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I’d love to see something to equal things out and make strategy more of a play.  I doubt you’ll get much traction as the series sponsor is a tire supplier tho.  
 

10hrs or less, must use 6 or less tires

20hrs or less, must use 10 or less tires 

+20hrs, must use less than 12 tires.  
 

Double 10s on the same weekend would be 20hrs. 
It would make things more competitive I think.  If a team has a rough start Saturday, maybe they tough it out on just 4 tires. Then they have 6 for Sunday. Or vice versa.  
 

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17 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

Maybe point 2 makes sense.

WRL has rules for it:

Tire Changes in the hot pit are restricted as follows.

  1.  Only one tire tool or one impact wrench allowed in the hot pit (excluding torque wrench).
  2.  Only manually operated floor jacks may be used.
  3.  Only two wheels may be lifted off the pavement at a time.
  4.  A total of 5 tires may be in the hot pit at any given time, including tires mounted on the car

You can still change a broken tire but not 4 tires in 20seconds with your pro crew. 

WRL also generally have more expensive builds than Champcar, so it's interesting they have this rule.

 

We run  1-2 sets of RE71r a weekend, they are good in wet, easy to drive and fast on track. It's about $100-$200 extra per person for the weekend than a cheaper tires. I used to be cheap with tires but it just sucks if your old tires get toast during the race. I already spend a fortune on babysitters and time off from work...

 

 

 

I run WRL also and I think them not having a time limit on stops is a penality on laps. We can pit in about 1:30 with fuel and driver change. If we add changing a tire that adds a good 1-3 minutes and about 2-3 laps penalty. In that case it works out. I do think having to do it all by hand is fair in that equation is it gives us cheap guys the same advantage as the Sahleens with the air guns and super jacks that cost more than my car.

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Please see last years petitions.  Everyone had their panties in a bunch over Sahlen's tire changing last year.  Several petitions were submitted (mine included) - all went down to defeat.  Seems there are plenty of vocal forum warriors - not so much when it comes time to vote.  After reading all of the posts/concerns last year and wanting to make it easy to police and not make massive changes this is what I submitted:

 

In an effort to curtail the potential for cost escalation it would seem prudent to put in place some restrictions on tire utilization.  The following takes into account numerous board postings and input.

1)      Teams may use as many tires as they wish in a weekend

2)      Tire changes in pit lane will be governed as follows:

a.      Only one tire changer and one jack operator can be utilized to change tires

b.      No air or corded tools may be used – cordless tools permitted (safety – no policing of air bottle safety, no tripping hazard and cost – no need for nitrogen bottle/regulator/cage)

c.      Only 2 wheels may be raised at one time (Fronts / Rears / Lefts / Rights)

d.      No loose tires on pit lane.  The tire changer must remove the wheel/tire from the vehicle, take it to the pit wall and return with the replacement (safety – tripping or uncontrolled lose wheels/tires rolling)

e.      A tire change on any corner must be complete (no more than one wheel off at a time) before moving onto another wheel/tire unless the car is resting on jack stands see 2.f below.  (torquing lugs can be done once the car is on the ground)

f.       No other work may be done while the car is raised on a jack only.  If the car is set on jack stands, other work may take place. (Driver may be in car, but no repair/service including “driver comfort”  that could knock the car off the jack, limit exposure to car falling, while still permitting work in repair situations)

g.      Tire only stops have no mandatory pit lane stay (no change to current 5min rule)

The above rules would help negate the use of “softer” tires with the required UTOG rating and would help budget teams to remain competitive.  This would also limit policing required by staff.

 

As I stated above - no support when it came time to vote.  It will e almost a year before petitions get voted on again.  Everyone will be off to another "hot topic" by then.

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5 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

I run WRL also and I think them not having a time limit on stops is a penality on laps. We can pit in about 1:30 with fuel and driver change. If we add changing a tire that adds a good 1-3 minutes and about 2-3 laps penalty. In that case it works out. I do think having to do it all by hand is fair in that equation is it gives us cheap guys the same advantage as the Sahleens with the air guns and super jacks that cost more than my car.

 

Yea, IIRC we were averaging just under a minute for pit stops towards the end of 2016 when we won the national points championship. If we changed a tire, it would cost us 15-20 seconds and that would add up fast. 

This type of rule would not have the same outcome in Champcar. 

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15 minutes ago, craig71188 said:

Please see last years petitions.  Everyone had their panties in a bunch over Sahlen's tire changing last year.  Several petitions were submitted (mine included) - all went down to defeat.  Seems there are plenty of vocal forum warriors - not so much when it comes time to vote.  After reading all of the posts/concerns last year and wanting to make it easy to police and not make massive changes this is what I submitted:

 

In an effort to curtail the potential for cost escalation it would seem prudent to put in place some restrictions on tire utilization.  The following takes into account numerous board postings and input.

1)      Teams may use as many tires as they wish in a weekend

2)      Tire changes in pit lane will be governed as follows:

a.      Only one tire changer and one jack operator can be utilized to change tires

b.      No air or corded tools may be used – cordless tools permitted (safety – no policing of air bottle safety, no tripping hazard and cost – no need for nitrogen bottle/regulator/cage)

c.      Only 2 wheels may be raised at one time (Fronts / Rears / Lefts / Rights)

d.      No loose tires on pit lane.  The tire changer must remove the wheel/tire from the vehicle, take it to the pit wall and return with the replacement (safety – tripping or uncontrolled lose wheels/tires rolling)

e.      A tire change on any corner must be complete (no more than one wheel off at a time) before moving onto another wheel/tire unless the car is resting on jack stands see 2.f below.  (torquing lugs can be done once the car is on the ground)

f.       No other work may be done while the car is raised on a jack only.  If the car is set on jack stands, other work may take place. (Driver may be in car, but no repair/service including “driver comfort”  that could knock the car off the jack, limit exposure to car falling, while still permitting work in repair situations)

g.      Tire only stops have no mandatory pit lane stay (no change to current 5min rule)

The above rules would help negate the use of “softer” tires with the required UTOG rating and would help budget teams to remain competitive.  This would also limit policing required by staff.

 

As I stated above - no support when it came time to vote.  It will e almost a year before petitions get voted on again.  Everyone will be off to another "hot topic" by then.

I do not see how it really changes anything. A team can comply and be within 5 minutes if they are fast. It does not address the issue of speed on tires and cost. I also put a few petitions on tires and got the no vote also. I am glad we are trying with petition to make the series better, even if we get the no.

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im not sure there is a good outcome for this.  i'd hate to see tire limits in the series.  we run 285 squared but depending on the tire, we might run a 265.  the 265s are actually faster.

 

The only thing i could maybe support is a limit of the number of tires you can run per race.  So 7hr race, maybe 6?  14, 8?  with an exception for tires that are cut/damaged/etc.  Not sure, i find it to something i dont support.  

 

i guess i find it more odd that spending 10k in tires for a weekend to beat up on some blue collar racers is somehow satisfying. 

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I can look around and try to find the link, but several years ago the idea was floated to have a list for all cars that gave 

 

Max Tire\Wheel Width

Max Fuel Capacity

Max Power (stock swapped motor or some calculator to scale power with engine mods)

 

These max values were supposed to be calculated with an assumed as raced weight, basically and extension of the swap calculator concept. 

 

We may soon be the only endurance series without a spec tire brand, that could be another approach to limiting really soft tires. So far WRL and LD have picked RS4 (with good pricing when bought through hankooks direct motorsports link)

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Why do we need a rule for this.  Can’t a phone call stop this?

 

 

Mike Chisek = MC

Big Spender = BS

 

ring....ring...

 

BS  Hello

MC  Hi, this is MC with Champcar.  We observed your spending of $one million dollars at the last Champcar race and think it’s not benefitting the image of the series.  We love having you race with us, and want you to come back, but kindly request that when you do, please choose a different tire so you don’t need 45 to race all weekend.  
BS  really?  That’s not fair

MC  yes really, this is an amateur series and its goal is to make it so average joes can race.  Using nitrogen impact wrenches, pro pit crew, and changing 335 series tires every stop doesn’t fit the series.  Thanks for understanding.

BS  OK, goodbye

MC thanks, goodbye

 

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14 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Width limitations will not stop those that favor the fast wearing tire with lots of grip, heck one could argue it would bring up tire costs for all.

I would think widths wider than a certain amount could add to laps and that would discourage people from running tires that wide and grippy. Also laps for certain tires could do it.

 

I do not see a perfect solution to keep costs down and speeds reasonable though. The GBU tire situation has brought it to a forefront of talk though so maybe someone can come up with a good option on it that can be reasonable for all. I like running my RS4 tires for two races or more to keep costs down. If I had to run a RE71r to be 2-4 seconds a lap faster to compete it would be sad as I could not afford it. I do have one single set one of my drivers purchased for us to use day one at PIRC. It will be interesting to see back to back tests on how much faster it is in my car.

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1 hour ago, karman1970 said:

Any though as to a max width based on some as-yet undetermined metric or formula?

The simple solution would have been to not allow flares - stock wheel openings, but that horse is long out of the barn....

 

(Oh yea, would have "solved" a lot of the bearing / hub issues that had to be addresses under the guise of "safety" with reduced point values too)

Edited by craig71188
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26 minutes ago, craig71188 said:

The simple solution would have been to not allow flares - stock wheel openings, but that horse is long out of the barn....

 

(Oh yea, would have "solved" a lot of the bearing / hub issues that had to be addresses under the guise of "safety" with reduced point values too)

For me are just as fast on 235/40/17 vs 255/40/17, but we get 2-3 races out of the 255 vs 235. I broke just as many hubs on 215 and 235 wide so it would not have helped me.

 

 

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19 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

PS- I feel like Mender starting a topic that I think is going to get some peoples panties all bunched up. I wonder if he rubs his hand together real quickly when he hits submit and says to himself, watch this.

No, I start topics like this and mine to give people a venue to vent without having to take responsibility for asking difficult questions, just giving their opinions. You know that because you were the first to ask what I was getting at with my IRS swap thread.

 

I have a deep-seated dislike for ineffectual rules and/or tech that taint an otherwise good series.

 

(P.S. The only time I rub my hands together quickly and say watch this is when I start a car or an engine build...  ;) )

Edited by mender
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I think for the long term viability of the series it should concentrate on tires that can last the weekend. open unlimited tire rules are great for the teams with big budgets but history has shown that it leads to dwindling car counts due to the cost and frustrations of the mid to low budget racers lack of competitiveness.That said I dont like the idea of limiting the size of the tires as my 3200 lb camaro will not corner as well as a 2000 lb miata  just pure physics.

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37 minutes ago, cj25 said:

I think for the long term viability of the series it should concentrate on tires that can last the weekend. open unlimited tire rules are great for the teams with big budgets but history has shown that it leads to dwindling car counts due to the cost and frustrations of the mid to low budget racers lack of competitiveness.That said I dont like the idea of limiting the size of the tires as my 3200 lb camaro will not corner as well as a 2000 lb miata  just pure physics.

I agree with on tire costs. I do think if you run a tire that will last races, even if a larger size, say a RS4 or 615 or other type as such, then no penalty for the type. I proposed that rule for a petition and was a no. I do think that now that the GBU team has shown what a huge tire can do when the right tire it has to be addressed. How the real question though and hence why I brought up the thread to has out what could be the best practice and idea.

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I just spent $3200 to test the RE71Rs.  Once we pick a size it'll be another $2-3k.  Forking stupid but we gotta find more time and that's a bullet that needs to be bit.

 

Ban RE71r, Ban Rivals (Rival S?), Ban A052, Ban the other Advan.

 

RS4s, Dunlop's, Falken should be good enough for everyone.

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4 hours ago, Huggy said:

Why do we need a rule for this.  Can’t a phone call stop this?

 

 

Mike Chisek = MC

Big Spender = BS

 

ring....ring...

 

BS  Hello

MC  Hi, this is MC with Champcar.  We observed your spending of $one million dollars at the last Champcar race and think it’s not benefitting the image of the series.  We love having you race with us, and want you to come back, but kindly request that when you do, please choose a different tire so you don’t need 45 to race all weekend.  
BS  really?  That’s not fair

MC  yes really, this is an amateur series and its goal is to make it so average joes can race.  Using nitrogen impact wrenches, pro pit crew, and changing 335 series tires every stop doesn’t fit the series.  Thanks for understanding.

BS  OK, goodbye

MC thanks, goodbye

 

 

that is 1000% solid idea, but for some reason that will never happen.

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