GBU Tires

[DEE DEE 817]

On 9/18/2020 at 4:56 PM, Burningham said:

 

No, turns out Nate is pretty spot on with his comment.

As I  stated the  team Did Not leave the series because of parts.  I have a document from 9 months ago that explains their decision.   That's the problem with forums everyone formulates their own opinion from what everyone else is saying who doesn't know either.   This thread is going the same way it went 9 months ago. 

Just to be clear this is not a negative towards  Nate or you.  I know neither of you gentlemen.

Edited September 21, 2020 by DEE DEE

[Team Infiniti 15,387]

40 minutes ago, MoparBoyy said:

You can't have suspension of rules for certain tracks.

Why not? Im sure there are more bizarre rules elsewhere in the world.

 

There is only one reason to want a super 200tw tire, lap times, the rest is amusing hearing excuses deflecting away from spirit and budget breaking tires in a budget orientated series.

Edited September 21, 2020 by Team Infiniti

[BigMoneyWasters 480]

This...

[MoparBoyy 1,362]

17 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Why not? Im sure there are more bizarre rules elsewhere in the world.

 

There is only one reason to want a super 200tw tire, lap times, the rest is amusing hearing excuses deflecting away from spirit and budget breaking tires in a budget orientated series.

 

i'm saying adding these random tire rules is silly due to one team blowing out a huge budget on a what should have been classed an EC car.

[enginerd 6,584]

31 minutes ago, DEE DEE said:

As I  stated the  team Did Not leave the series because of parts.  I have a document from 9 months ago that explains their decision.   That's the problem with forums everyone formulates their own opinion from what everyone else is saying who doesn't know either.   This thread is going the same way it went 9 months ago. 

Just to be clear this is not a negative towards  Nate or you.  I know neither of you gentlemen.

Can you explain it? The sequence of events I saw was:

1) Questionable legality parts at Barber with tech rejecting protest

2) Forum mafia reviews photos and agrees that the parts were not legal

3) Accounts come forward saying that they had illegal parts at previous races and tech was letting it slide

4) Changes to the free spring rule comes out which would make their springs +points in 2020

5) R3R disappears from entry lists for 2020 events, including Indy, which they had 3+ cars signed up for.

 

Looked to me like they quit because of parts.

Edited September 21, 2020 by enginerd

[mender 8,225]

2 hours ago, skierman64 said:

I would also suggest that if a race changes from wet to dry or dry to wet that the rule I suggested be waived or suspended so teams can change tire to account for conditions.  

 

So would that be a couple of drops, a light drizzle, puddles forming, etc.? And if they swap to RE71-Rs, how soon do they have to switch back to their dry tires?

 

"Well, it looked like rain and my driver reported drops on the back straight so we came in and switched tires. Of course, we were hoping to get back to our dry tires but we didn't dare risk having to swap back to the wets if it rained again."

 

Last summer during my stint we had a major downpour for about an hour. I was only about 10 seconds per lap slower in the wet despite being on R-S4s and I was passing other cars that were on RE71-Rs.

 

No need for my team to swap to rain tires so why should other teams get to swap for "free"? 

 

 

Edited September 22, 2020 by mender

[DEE DEE 817]

25 minutes ago, enginerd said:

Can you explain it? The sequence of events I saw was:

1) Questionable legality parts at Barber with tech rejecting protest

2) Forum mafia reviews photos and agrees that the parts were not legal

3) Accounts come forward saying that they had illegal parts at previous races and tech was letting it slide

4) Changes to the free spring rule comes out which would make their springs +points in 2020

5) R3R disappears from entry lists for 2020 events, including Indy, which they had 3+ cars signed up for.

 

Looked to me like they quit because of parts.

Nate  would like to meet you.  I may be at RA & can discuss with you.  Not doing it hear. 

#2  Mafia would have been more civil, more like a Lynch Mob.

#5  Cars were entered in Nov 2019 & then Sebring.......

I drove one of those cars.  Believe me had nothing to do with parts. 

[karman1970 979]

18 minutes ago, mender said:

So would that be a couple of drops, a light drizzle, puddles forming, etc.? And if they swap to RE71-Rs, how soon do they have to switch back to their dry tires?

 

As I sit here watching LeMans that I recorded this weekend, they mentioned that the race directors have to declare it a "wet weather race" before the tire rules are allowed to change.  No easy way to let all teams in a budget series know at the same time, though.

[wvumtnbkr 7,318]

15 minutes ago, karman1970 said:

 

As I sit here watching LeMans that I recorded this weekend, they mentioned that the race directors have to declare it a "wet weather race" before the tire rules are allowed to change.  No easy way to let all teams in a budget series know at the same time, though.

Race monitor allows the series to do a broadcast to all teams.

[MoparBoyy 1,362]

9 minutes ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Race monitor allows the series to do a broadcast to all teams.

 

ummm... what?

[wvumtnbkr 7,318]

Yep.  They have used it a few times too.  When there was a championship at Pittsburgh, champcar used it to communicate to all the teams.  

 

There is a way that they can write messages and alerts in the app.

 

They used it for awhile to give black flag notifications too.

 

Not sure why they stopped using it.

 

https://www.race-monitor.com/Help/Article/17/notifications

Edited September 22, 2020 by wvumtnbkr

[MoparBoyy 1,362]

Just now, wvumtnbkr said:

Yep.  They have used it a few times too.  When there was a championship at Pittsburgh, champcar used it to communicate to all the teams.  

 

so then you'd like a have a crew guy watching it the whole time? 

[ShutupJack 9]

Doesn't seem too hard for me/us to keep up with race monitor when its not our turn to drive.

The only crew we bring are drivers who are waiting for their stints, IE we usually have 4 people or less present for a race weekend.

[wvumtnbkr 7,318]

10 hours ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

so then you'd like a have a crew guy watching it the whole time? 

I was merely presenting the fact it existed.

 

We all basically watch it and champcar live the entire race anyway....

[Snorman 2,891]

There should always be at least one crew member in a pit. It should be very easy for the series to communicate to all teams by simply walking pit lane.

And if a team can't recognoze changing weather it probably won't matter anyway.

[Slugworks Paul 1,790]

12 hours ago, DEE DEE said:

Nate  would like to meet you.  I may be at RA & can discuss with you.  Not doing it hear. 

#2  Mafia would have been more civil, more like a Lynch Mob.

#5  Cars were entered in Nov 2019 & then Sebring.......

I drove one of those cars.  Believe me had nothing to do with parts. 

 

We know you're friends with people on that team, seems like some bias is present. Just sayin.

[cowboys647 182]

I’ve watched this thread with interest for a while and it seems there are two fundamental issues:

 

1. Team uses (3)x4 tires in a weekend. If other teams want to match speed, they must also spend more on tires. 
 

2. Sticky tires being used for a 1-3s per lap gain must be changed during a race weekend for (most) cars. 
 

There have been options discussed on how to stop the speed and cost creep for both of these issues. I’m going to go through the two options I’ve liked the most and explain why. 
 

1. Ban RE71r, rival 1.5s, etc. super sticky 180tw tires.

     Pros: The majority of teams will reduce their operating costs by switching to a harder rubber. If teams are on harder rubber, the field is a little slower and (typically) teams won’t have to bring 3 sets of spares to the race. This solves issues 1 and 2 for (most) teams. No rule will solve this for all teams. 
     Cons: Maybe some teams can’t find any RS4/equivalent tire in their size and have to switch sizes?

 

2. Add pit stop time to change more than 1 tire. 
     Pros: Stops teams from doing a swap mid race if they are using sticky tires. This effectively stops teams using multiple sets during each race. This solves issue 1 but not quite fully issue 2. 
     Cons: Teams will still use sticky tires if they can last 1 day (8hrs). This means other teams will also have to spend money to be competitive. I think this gives an unfair advantage to both lighter cars and teams with more $$$. Also as has been noted teams that like to use up used tires will also be penalized here. 
 

I think option 1 is the simplest to enforce, hurts the least amount of teams, saves everyone the most amount of money, and reduces speed creep for the series. 
 

Full disclosure: I drive an NA Miata on 225 RS4 that last 2-3 full race weekends and various track days. Love Racing is planning to campaign 3 different cars in 2021. If The sticky tires aren’t reigned in, we will have to also make the switch like Partsbadger but an extra ~$2000 per race for each car which means that we might have to reduce the entries from 3 races to 2. 
 

(Typed on the phone so sorry for typos)

[skierman64 2,050]

13 hours ago, mender said:

So would that be a couple of drops, a light drizzle, puddles forming, etc.? And if they swap to RE71-Rs, how soon do they have to switch back to their dry tires?

 

"Well, it looked like rain and my driver reported drops on the back straight so we came in and switched tires. Of course, we were hoping to get back to our dry tires but we didn't dare risk having to swap back to the wets if it rained again."

 

Last summer during my stint we had a major downpour for about an hour. I was only about 10 seconds per lap slower in the wet despite being on R-S4s and I was passing other cars that were on RE71-Rs.

 

No need for my team to swap to rain tires so why should other teams get to swap for "free"? 

 

 

 

The race director would make the call.  It would be the same for all teams.  

[skierman64 2,050]

13 hours ago, karman1970 said:

 

As I sit here watching LeMans that I recorded this weekend, they mentioned that the race directors have to declare it a "wet weather race" before the tire rules are allowed to change.  No easy way to let all teams in a budget series know at the same time, though.

 

Sure, tell the pit stewards who then walk up and down pit road informing the teams.  Each steward is typically watching 6-10 pit boxes, this could be knocked out in 2 minutes.  

[skierman64 2,050]

12 hours ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

so then you'd like a have a crew guy watching it the whole time? 

 

If it started to rain and you wanted to take advantage of the tire change rain exemption, sure.  

[MoparBoyy 1,362]

4 minutes ago, skierman64 said:

 

If it started to rain and you wanted to take advantage of the tire change rain exemption, sure.  

 

again, more rules, procedures, and other BS just because of one team in a EC car?  seems like a waste

 

[skierman64 2,050]

1 minute ago, MoparBoyy said:

 

again, more rules, procedures, and other BS just because of one team in a EC car?  seems like a waste

 

 

It's not just one team, the super sticky tires are available to any team.  

[MoparBoyy 1,362]

3 minutes ago, skierman64 said:

 

It's not just one team, the super sticky tires are available to any team.  

 

correct and its never been an issue before because this is amateur racing.  99.9% of the teams dont have a 10k per weekend tire budget.

[Black Magic 1,427]

21 hours ago, Burningham said:

LOL. Only you could turn a tire discussion into a class racing post. You the man Drew. 

 

Easiest way to get concensus...

 

Split the opposing views into 2 groups.... 

 

Given the history and prior talks years ago, I would be truly impressed if tire bans had any hope of success politically for the fastest cars. 

[XelderX 153]

We already have tire bans. People just don't think of it that way because we don't ban tires by name. 

 

Using treadwear ratings as a metric for rules writing was ok until everyone figured out that nobody regulates those ratings. 

 

Up until last year the tire companies have played nice and even the softer stuff like the RE71 has been reasonable, but it's now creeping again with the Yokohama A052 which has the same treadwear rating as the RS4.