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I haven't read the whole 12 pages of this thread but if the goal is to reduce the incentive to outspend, just make spending less effective.    If you've modified your suspension to such a point where fat/sticky tires are helpful just take the legs out from under those changes:

 

Tires width up to 120% of OEM can be 200tw*

Tires > 120-150% OEM must be 400tw (or above)

Tires > 150% of OEM must be 600tw (or above)

 

Any goomba with a cell phone can tech that.

 

*insert whatever numbers you like that only impact the "other guy".

Edited by mcewena
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1 hour ago, mcewena said:

I haven't read the whole 12 pages of this thread but if the goal is to reduce the incentive to outspend, just make spending less effective.    If you've modified your suspension to such a point where fat/sticky tires are helpful just take the legs out from under those changes:

 

Tires width up to 120% of OEM can be 200tw*

Tires > 120-150% OEM must be 400tw (or above)

Tires > 150% of OEM must be 600tw (or above)

 

Any goomba with a cell phone can tech that.

 

*insert whatever numbers you like that only impact the "other guy".

Higher treadwear tires usually wear faster when road raced in my experience.

 

They squirm a lot more and chunk or blister.

 

Narrower tires also wear faster than wider tires.  

 

Therefore, this rule would actually allow teams that want to throw cash at the issue be MORE successful.

 

They would just run narrow sticky fast wearing tires and change them at every other pit stop.

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1 minute ago, wvumtnbkr said:

Higher treadwear tires usually wear faster when road raced in my experience.

 

They squirm a lot more and chunk or blister.

 

Not our experience with the DZ102s we used to run.  Just less overall grip.  We could get a full weekend and them some out of a set of 205s.  Just one data point, and being 1900lbs helps I'm sure.

 

Stepping up to ZIIIs at Indy just highlighted that now the car needs even more money thrown at suspension stuff to take advantage of the extra grip. They also wore out faster, but that's a totally different discussion.

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2 minutes ago, karman1970 said:

 

Not our experience with the DZ102s we used to run.  Just less overall grip.  We could get a full weekend and them some out of a set of 205s.  Just one data point, and being 1900lbs helps I'm sure.

 

Stepping up to ZIIIs at Indy just highlighted that now the car needs even more money thrown at suspension stuff to take advantage of the extra grip. They also wore out faster, but that's a totally different discussion.

Exactly, less grip means less advantage to unubtainium suspension setups, 47 piston calipers, hidden horsepower etc..   Doesn't stop anybody from buying those things (free country and all that) just means less incentive.

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4 hours ago, enginerd said:

So I would have to unmount my tires and put these tags inside and remount them? On Friday before a race? When I’m trying to test the car and get it set up? I don’t have a tire machine in my trailer and I try to show up with my wheels and tires ready to go for the weekend. This sounds like an enormous burden, not to mention actual cost since tire shops average $20 per wheel to mount rubber. 

not necessarily the friday before. there are many different timing approaches that could be taken to do this approach.

 

if people are serious about addressing the topic then of course there will have to be some adaptations made by the series participants. the idea you can rectify this level of distortion in the rules and activity patterns without some level of adaptation and change is pretty unrealistic.

 

all depends on how bent people are with having to try to keep up with 5k or greater tire spend for a weekend i guess. if the painpoint is high enough, change will happen :)

 

 

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On 9/22/2020 at 11:33 AM, Snorman said:

IMO there is more left in the car and since it holds 24 gallons stock, it's probably holding ~27 gallons. My bet is they can run the car for longer stints than they are, but aren't doing it for obvious reasons. 

So you are saying their stints are limited by tires and not fuel? :)

Edited by morganf
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1 hour ago, LuckyKid said:

I highly doubt there's a linear relationship between tire width, weight, and performance.

Likely not completely linear (load sensitivity) but definitely a correlation; check a performance tire load graph. Unit loading suggests that all else being equal, weight/mm of tire width = X performance

 

People don't use wide tires because they're slow, which is why a lot of series limit speed through tire width.

Edited by mender
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  • 1 month later...
10 minutes ago, Stu Pidasso said:

What tires work in the rain on a 3000lb torqe enabled machine     ???

Any of the popular choices, yes even hankook, but folks want more, so until the rules change and your budget allows, go and get  a bunch of fast wearing re71 tires, they are good for 2-3 seconds a lap dry or wet.

Edited by Team Infiniti
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23 minutes ago, Stu Pidasso said:

WOW, RE 71's require that I find a Sugar Mama during a global health crisis...

And Being we are a budget minded series,that is why some of us feel multiple tire changes need to be limited.

 My proposal would be to add five minutes for more than one tire changed during a fuel stop.

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8 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

And Being we are a budget minded series,that is why some of us feel multiple tire changes need to be limited.

 My proposal would be to add five minutes for more than one tire changed during a fuel stop.

 

I think it would be possible to monitor/enforce that. Teams that change tires during the race are typically well known, it's not a crapbox 92 miata with a U-haul trailer.

 

So people will be looking at those teams every closely during the pit stops. 

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  • Technical Advisory Committee
2 hours ago, Stu Pidasso said:

So, does someone on here know what tires the Green Stang from MK Motorsports was wearing ? RE 71s ?

Thank you Infinity


I am pretty sure they were on Hankook RS4’s

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  • Technical Advisory Committee
9 minutes ago, Huggy said:

Can confirm.  Definitely on RS4.  Surprisingly narrow as well, I want to say they were 255's


They looked narrower than that when I was admiring the car at Pitt, certainly not anything particularly wide. 

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5 hours ago, Stu Pidasso said:

What tires work in the rain on a 3000lb torqe enabled machine     ???

Continental ExtremeContact Sport or Potenza S-04 Pole Position are fast tires in monsoons. They were 5+s faster at RA one particularly rainy race. RE71 may be faster in just wet weather. 

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Could it be that the cast majority of teams complaining about tire widths and compounds have not maximized their setup to a tire size and construction? Larger tires are a compromise, different corning dynamics for lower straight line speed.

Part of the appeal of the series is not just car spectrum but direction of development. I run a 205 for cost and speed reasons. 

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And I pay too much in taxes. Short of running a spec tire, what other viable options are there? I am pretty sure that a car maximized on RS-4s or RT615K+ that is well driven has potential to win a race. When it comes to keeping the field relatively even and budgets reasonable I do not see tires as the low hanging fruit. Handle these things through VPI, Swap, & part values.

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36 minutes ago, wd6681 said:

And I pay too much in taxes. Short of running a spec tire, what other viable options are there? I am pretty sure that a car maximized on RS-4s or RT615K+ that is well driven has potential to win a race. When it comes to keeping the field relatively even and budgets reasonable I do not see tires as the low hanging fruit. Handle these things through VPI, Swap, & part values.

That's true.  However, take that same car and bolt on 8 or 12  re71r and they can go 2 seconds a lap faster all day....

 

Teams that run rs4 are at a disadvantage in lap time.  Fact.

 

Re71r cost more and require more frequent changing.  Fact.

 

Why allow teams to throw money at lap time?

 

There are only 3 tires, that I am aware of, that can improve your lap time by seconds,  at a double or triple cost.   For a cost conscience series,  where do they fit in?

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7 hours ago, wd6681 said:

And I pay too much in taxes. Short of running a spec tire, what other viable options are there? I am pretty sure that a car maximized on RS-4s or RT615K+ that is well driven has potential to win a race. When it comes to keeping the field relatively even and budgets reasonable I do not see tires as the low hanging fruit. Handle these things through VPI, Swap, & part values.

At Road America we were like 2-3 laps back and finished 4th with RS4 tires. If we had the budget to have RE71r we would have been a good 3-4 seconds a lap faster and been right up there for the battle for the lead. The RS4's had 30+ hours as they ran the VIR 24 and a 7 prior. The top 3 cars had the fast tires, A052, RE71 type. We had 4 really good stints, no flags, no offs, basically a perfect race.

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