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The series title sponsor is a tire distributor.  No additional limits will be put on tires while they are on board.   People need to have some common sense. 

 

Tires are not even in the top 10 for issues currently.  

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The "hung up on winning a trophy" statement that comes out occasionally is really tiring.  What's the point of any undertaking in life if you don't want to compete with the best on an equal footing an

Why do we need a rule for this.  Can’t a phone call stop this?     Mike Chisek = MC Big Spender = BS   ring....ring...   BS  Hello MC  Hi, this is MC with

If dont want re71r in the series, just don't let it in the series.   I like the idea of a list of allowable tires.

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1 hour ago, LuckyKid said:

I just spent $3200 to test the RE71Rs.  Once we pick a size it'll be another $2-3k.  Forking stupid but we gotta find more time and that's a bullet that needs to be bit.

 

Ban RE71r, Ban Rivals (Rival S?), Ban A052, Ban the other Advan.

 

RS4s, Dunlop's, Falken should be good enough for everyone.

Thats a very admirable and unselfish opinion roy coming from a team that has the ability to spend the money very rare, skoal to you roy !!!

 

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Welcome to the arms race.  It has been going on quietly for a while, now someone has finally built a car to the limits of the rules with costs not a concern.  Get used to it.

 

Tire size is dependent on car power and weight.  Banning a certain size tire only limits certain cars.

 

Tire brand - well it used to be DOT rated.  Then came along Yokohama A008's.  Fast forward 20+ years and it was treadwear 180/200 and now look where we are.

 

AER requires you change tires in the paddock, no jacking the car in pit lane.  So they have car ripping through the paddock and changing tires in the fire lane just outside the pit lane.

 

 

We used to run 12 hour races in a Miata in another series that only required them to be DOT rated.  We showed up with no less than 10 tires ready to go, plus rains, plus left overs for practice, and transport.  We knew it was expensive and consumptive and going to cost effort at the track.  But we knew it was the way to win.  And we did.

 

If you want to save money, ban testing. 

 

It really doesn't matter what the rule book has in it, money will always be part of the solution to get around the restrictions.

 

 

Tires.JPG

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1 hour ago, LuckyKid said:

I just spent $3200 to test the RE71Rs.  Once we pick a size it'll be another $2-3k.  Forking stupid but we gotta find more time and that's a bullet that needs to be bit.

 

Ban RE71r, Ban Rivals (Rival S?), Ban A052, Ban the other Advan.

 

RS4s, Dunlop's, Falken should be good enough for everyone.

How did you spend that much, seem absurd.

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7 minutes ago, scottyk said:

How did you spend that much, seem absurd.

5 x 17x9s

5 x 15x7.5s

5 x 245/40-17 RE71R

5 x 205/50-15 RE71R

 

We will test these vs. the RS4's in a couple weeks.  Based on the winner we will have to buy enough rims and tires to last for the Road America race and test day. 

 

They aren't cheap.

 

I'd feel much better if I knew the tires would last.  It's literally burning up money every lap.

 

20200827_143253.jpg

Edited by LuckyKid
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13 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

5 x 17x9s

5 x 15x7.5s

5 x 245/40-17 RE71R

5 x 205/50-15 RE71R

 

We will test these vs. the RS4's in a couple weeks.  Based on the winner we will have to buy enough rims and tires to last for the Road America race and test day. 

 

They aren't cheap.

 

I'd feel much better if I knew the tires would last.  It's literally burning up money every lap.

 

20200827_143253.jpg

can I ask what I think is a dumb question - why 5 of each?  Are you building something like a Tyrrell?

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Not that I am advocating or supporting it, but...

2 sets of tires for races up to 14 hours.

3 sets of tires for races up to 24 hours.

No limits on tire size.

No limits on brand or model, 180 TW minimum.

Tires to be in pit at beginning of race.

Pit in/pit marshalls to confirm cut or damaged tires.

How to control teams from violating?

How to address excessive tire wear to avoid safety issues?

 

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Guys let’s slow down here and remember that the GBU car was tech’d at their shop. No line of cars, no heat or pressure to keep the line moving and parts were still missed. Do you really think CC has the man power to watch tire changes at the track? 

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4 minutes ago, scottyk said:

Guys let’s slow down here and remember that the GBU car was tech’d at their shop. No line of cars, no heat or pressure to keep the line moving and parts were still missed. Do you really think CC has the man power to watch tire changes at the track? 

Maybe not CCES but it seems competitors are already watching tires without a tire rule.

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PartsBadger.  WOW, that testing of tires alone is above and beyond 99% of the teams out there. I am glad you are doing that as I see you share you findings with aero and wind tunnel testing. It will be interesting to see how much faster the RE71r is than the RS4. I am using the RE71r on day one at PIRC and will use the RS4 day two as I only have 4 RE71R tires. I will share my results also, I just hope I can run both days without issue. 

 

Think of the series being and amateur affordable series that is member owned. Some of the top teams have gobbles of money and spend it. They can afford lots of tires at the top level that give them mutliple seconds a lap advantage. Most of us can not. As an amateur and entry level type of series we should promote the affordability of it. I do not think we should ban XYZ tires, but it should be laps that can be made up to even it out a bit.

 

We could do if you run certain tires is a multiplier based on the size of tire and weight of the car from the VPI table. It would be easy to do. Example.

 

A

Run ABC tire is .0 multiplier (Rs4,615, etc) basically zero laps for ABC tires

Run XYZ tire is a 1.0 multiplier (re71r, toyo RR, ect)

 

B

You can have up to 10mm of tire per 100lbs of car. For each 10mm over your vpi you add this. We might want a curve as such. 

10mm over .25

20mm over .50

30mm over 1.0

40mm over 1.5

50mm over 2.0

60mm over 2.5

 

C

If over 285mm multiply (A+B)*C

295mm 1.5

305mm 2.0

315mm 3.0

325mm 4.0

335mm 5.0

345mm 6.0

355mm 7.0

 

Example= I just looked up the weigh in the swap calculator.

Miata NA/NB 2064lbs in the vpi-  Run 245 RS4 is zero points since RS4. 

Run a 205 RE71r that is within the mm to weight and you have a 1.0 or 1 lap. 

Run a 235/40/17 re71r that is 30mm over and a 1.0 to the base 1.0 multiplier which is 2.0 =  2 laps. 

Run a 255/40/17 re71r that is 50mm over add a 2.0 to the base 1.0 multiplier which is 3.0 = 3 laps.

 

 

 

vette- 3168 weight.

If they run the 335 wide XYZ you start with a 1.0, add .5 due to 20mm above weight which is a 1.5. Then multiply for the over 285mm sizing, 5.0 factor at 335, 1.5*5= 7.5 or 8 laps.

 

Are there examples of cars that would break this rule? I looked up common cars and it seemed to work.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

PartsBadger.  WOW, that testing of tires alone is above and beyond 99% of the teams out there. I am glad you are doing that as I see you share you findings with aero and wind tunnel testing. It will be interesting to see how much faster the RE71r is than the RS4. I am using the RE71r on day one at PIRC and will use the RS4 day two as I only have 4 RE71R tires. I will share my results also, I just hope I can run both days without issue. 

 

Think of the series being and amateur affordable series that is member owned. Some of the top teams have gobbles of money and spend it. They can afford lots of tires at the top level that give them mutliple seconds a lap advantage. Most of us can not. As an amateur and entry level type of series we should promote the affordability of it. I do not think we should ban XYZ tires, but it should be laps that can be made up to even it out a bit.

 

We could do if you run certain tires is a multiplier based on the size of tire and weight of the car from the VPI table. It would be easy to do. Example.

 

A

Run ABC tire is .0 multiplier (Rs4,615, etc) basically zero laps for ABC tires

Run XYZ tire is a 1.0 multiplier (re71r, toyo RR, ect)

 

B

You can have up to 10mm of tire per 100lbs of car. For each 10mm over your vpi you add this. We might want a curve as such. 

10mm over .25

20mm over .50

30mm over 1.0

40mm over 1.5

50mm over 2.0

60mm over 2.5

 

C

If over 285mm multiply (A+B)*C

295mm 1.5

305mm 2.0

315mm 3.0

325mm 4.0

335mm 5.0

345mm 6.0

355mm 7.0

 

Example= I just looked up the weigh in the swap calculator.

Miata NA/NB 2064lbs in the vpi-  Run 245 RS4 is zero points since RS4. 

Run a 205 RE71r that is within the mm to weight and you have a 1.0 or 1 lap. 

Run a 235/40/17 re71r that is 30mm over and a 1.0 to the base 1.0 multiplier which is 2.0 =  2 laps. 

Run a 255/40/17 re71r that is 50mm over add a 2.0 to the base 1.0 multiplier which is 3.0 = 3 laps.

 

 

 

vette- 3168 weight.

If they run the 335 wide XYZ you start with a 1.0, add .5 due to 20mm above weight which is a 1.5. Then multiply for the over 285mm sizing, 5.0 factor at 335, 1.5*5= 7.5 or 8 laps.

 

Are there examples of cars that would break this rule? I looked up common cars and it seemed to work.

 

 

 

I think if something is done it’s got to be simple.  No offence, but that is way too complicated.  
 

Do any amount of research, and you’ll find that the 200 Treadwear ratings are a joke. The tire manufacturers set them themselves.  I don’t think it’s a good way of doing it.  I believe that allowing 3-4 different tires would be the best approach. Or banning certain sticky high wear tires.  This way, if a team wants to spend $$$ on 4 new sets, the advantage will be smaller.  
 

I do think that limiting tire quantity would be a better option and allow teams more freedom. It should make the long term races better as well.  But that comes with the need to actively enforce the rule.  

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Back in my go-kart days, we had concoctions that would take a brick tire an turn it into butter.  I would expect if we limit tire choice, something like that would creep in, and I doubt there would be any way to check for it (other than the obvious hint when RS4's mysteriously only last a few hours).  As much as I hate it, a total quantity limit, or some form of pit stop penalty is likely the better answer.

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44 minutes ago, petawawarace said:

I think if something is done it’s got to be simple.  No offence, but that is way too complicated.  
 

Do any amount of research, and you’ll find that the 200 Treadwear ratings are a joke. The tire manufacturers set them themselves.  I don’t think it’s a good way of doing it.  I believe that allowing 3-4 different tires would be the best approach. Or banning certain sticky high wear tires.  This way, if a team wants to spend $$$ on 4 new sets, the advantage will be smaller.  
 

I do think that limiting tire quantity would be a better option and allow teams more freedom. It should make the long term races better as well.  But that comes with the need to actively enforce the rule.  

How should we limit quantity? If I use RE71R I should be able to use a single set in a day on a double day, which almost all races are. That would still have me using up 8 tires in a weekend at around $200 each, or $1600 versus RS4 for more than entire weekend. I guess we could say you need to use the same tire the entire race weekend, but how do you keep track of that so it might not be realistic.

 

I do think it has many steps and can seem complicated. Maybe complicated at first and once we use it not.

 

I do not think they will allow banning of certain tires as that has been said so I try to come up with ideas that work within that.

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12 hours ago, LuckyKid said:

I just spent $3200 to test the RE71Rs.  Once we pick a size it'll be another $2-3k.  Forking stupid but we gotta find more time and that's a bullet that needs to be bit.

 

Ban RE71r, Ban Rivals (Rival S?), Ban A052, Ban the other Advan.

 

RS4s, Dunlop's, Falken should be good enough for everyone.

 

And when it starts raining or snowing? 

 

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When RS4's run out like they do every year what will teams do if their size isn't available in a Dunlop or a Falken?     You guys are wasting your time. 

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1 minute ago, turbogrill said:

 

And when it starts raining or snowing? 

 

Lots of teams run RS4s, Dunlops, and Falkens in the rain.  It would make sense to ban Conti's as well to avoid people buying rain specific sets.  I run Conti's on my street car and we steal the rims and tires before races.

 

20200820_125921.jpg

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7 minutes ago, Snake said:

When RS4's run out like they do every year what will teams do if their size isn't available in a Dunlop or a Falken?     You guys are wasting your time. 

LD statement:  offering teams guaranteed stock in at least a dozen sizes, exceptional discounted pricing, expert support and $3,000 in free tires at every event!

 

 

Tires have been an issue with Sahlens, R3R, now GBU and I think everyone recognizes that there is a budget separation between those that can run the hot tires and those that can only afford durable tires.  Its an un-needed expense that can be regulated out, might as well do it and get more parity and everyone saves money in the long run.  We already regulate out race tires for the same reason.

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I feel a bit like we are trying to solve a lack of adherance to the existing rule book by adding more rules.  We can't properly enforce what we already have, what indicates that we will not make special exceptions for certain cars based on some factor that impacts one vehicle and becomes a slippery slope for everyone else to follow?  

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Just now, LuckyKid said:

LD statement:  offering teams guaranteed stock in at least a dozen sizes, exceptional discounted pricing, expert support and $3,000 in free tires at every event!

 

What does that have to do with this series?    We are not a single tire make series.   If you are suggesting we move in that direction kiss TireRack and their sponsorship $$$ goodbye. 

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2 minutes ago, Snake said:

 

What does that have to do with this series?    We are not a single tire make series.   If you are suggesting we move in that direction kiss TireRack and their sponsorship $$$ goodbye. 

 

 

When Tirerack came on board as a title sponsor did anything change for the competitors? Are entry fees lower now or is there some prize that Tirerack gives out? We were on hiatus from the series when they stepped in so generally curious. 

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Just now, XelderX said:

 

 

When Tirerack came on board as a title sponsor did anything change for the competitors? Are entry fees lower now or is there some prize that Tirerack gives out? We were on hiatus from the series when they stepped in so generally curious. 

$800 in tires given out @ most races

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7 minutes ago, Snake said:

 

What does that have to do with this series?    We are not a single tire make series.   If you are suggesting we move in that direction kiss TireRack and their sponsorship $$$ goodbye. 

Why can't tire rack guarantee stock of specific sizes of the RS4, Dunlop, and Falken?  This isn't moving a mountain here and should be administratively possible. 

You presented an objection that a specific tire has stock issues, and I presented evidence that the objection can be overcome by a similar series with less resources than CCES

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Enough with the drama over one car that got by some how and beat the crap out of everyone and then some. Let's just do as Huggy suggests. Pressure the management to manage this team. I think every race and track has its 1%ers tearing it up. From what I have read this is not first time nor will it be the last time. The car can be removed or just EC it and be done with it. Very cool build just dont have the cash to compete at that level. I run my race. Pass me 100 times. Your still a winner for just entering. I enjoy the journey. I love Champcar for the laps and wheel to wheel racing. If I ever get on the podium it will be pure luck. Anyone wanting first place may think of a series that cares your first. This all over a trophy and bragging to who? Its amature racing. Just think of the guys at GBU might say. "Remember the year we built our corvette spanked the field and got banned".  What a story to tell. Go out while on top. 

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