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2 minutes ago, atxe30 said:

All of this is grossly over complicating both the problem and the solution.

 

Problem: Very high cost of unlimited tire consumption at a given event creates competitive distortion.

 

Solution: Limit teams to (n) sets of tire per event. *Do Not* spec tires. (Do tire impound if you really feel like you have to enforce it that stringently or make penalty for violation lifetime ban for series, etc).

 

This is a solved problem at the highest levels of racing. Do not waste time re-engineering an already solved problem.

 

So how do they do it, you get say 6 tires a weekend? Or is it during the race?

 

Hopefully you don't get more than 2 flats :)

 

 

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Why do we need a rule for this.  Can’t a phone call stop this?     Mike Chisek = MC Big Spender = BS   ring....ring...   BS  Hello MC  Hi, this is MC with

If dont want re71r in the series, just don't let it in the series.   I like the idea of a list of allowable tires.

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2 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

So how do they do it, you get say 6 tires a weekend? Or is it during the race?

 

Hopefully you don't get more than 2 flats :)

 

 

10hrs or less, must use 6 or less tires

20hrs or less, must use 10 or less tires 

+20hrs, must use less than 12 tires.  
 

Double 10s on the same weekend would be 20hrs.

 

Either record the serial numbers (if tires have them) or find a way to uniquely identify them when you go through tech.  Obviously there are some challenges with it, but its really the best solution.

 

If you get 2 flats, your likely not going to be in contention anyway. But, it would not be hard to have an exception if you have several flats.

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1 minute ago, petawawarace said:

10hrs or less, must use 6 or less tires

20hrs or less, must use 10 or less tires 

+20hrs, must use less than 12 tires.  
 

Double 10s on the same weekend would be 20hrs.

 

Either record the serial numbers (if tires have them) or find a way to uniquely identify them when you go through tech.  Obviously there are some challenges with it, but its really the best solution.

 

If you get 2 flats, your likely not going to be in contention anyway. But, it would not be hard to have an exception if you have several flats.

 

OK so most likely 6 tires a day? That is still lots of tires. Who can change 2 tires in 8 hours without loosing time? (I know my lazy team can't)

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@turbogrill F1 and Indy both have allocations that are event based not day based I'm pretty sure.

 

I have a hard time seeing why something like 3 sets for a given weekend wouldn't work. I'm not sure its worth going more granular than a weekend that's unnecessary optimization.  3 would give you two dry sets and one wet set. How much more would you need than that? If you don't use both dry sets fine, whatever....

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2 minutes ago, atxe30 said:

@turbogrill F1 and Indy both have allocations that are event based not day based I'm pretty sure.

 

I have a hard time seeing why something like 3 sets for a given weekend wouldn't work. I'm not sure its worth going more granular than a weekend that's unnecessary optimization.  3 would give you two dry sets and one wet set. How much more would you need than that? If you don't use both dry sets fine, whatever....

 

For the typical 8+8 I think 2 sets should be plenty...

But it seems like people want to limit to only 1 set a weekend (same thing as running RS4,Dunlop,Falkens)

 

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4 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

PartsBadger.  WOW, that testing of tires alone is above and beyond 99% of the teams out there. I am glad you are doing that as I see you share you findings with aero and wind tunnel testing. It will be interesting to see how much faster the RE71r is than the RS4. I am using the RE71r on day one at PIRC and will use the RS4 day two as I only have 4 RE71R tires. I will share my results also, I just hope I can run both days without issue. 

We've never had wind tunnel testing done.  I called and got prices over a year ago, but that is it.  I do however have a group on facebook and we share information.  I also bought some $35 Manometers off amazon to do pressure testing.  I also watch videos and read prolifically to use windtunnel tested concepts (vents with gurney flaps) on our car.

I am all for simple as far as the tire rules.

I'd support either tire model bans, or tire quantity bans.  

I will share my test data since no one else has shared data with the miata teams on the 245/40-15 RS4 vs. the 205/50-15.  To my knowledge no NA/NB miata team has tested a 245/40-17 so that is new as well and I will share that with Miata teams.

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Maybe it should just be set out in the Sups?  It would depend on the track too.  Some tracks are tire eaters, some are not.  
 

I don’t get the impression that too many have an issue with teams putting a new set of tires on each day of racing.  That’s reasonable. Even an extra tire or 2 for flats or excessive wear.   
 

For 15-20hrs of racing, 10 tires should be good.  If you can do it on less, great.  

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13 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

For the typical 8+8 I think 2 sets should be plenty...

But it seems like people want to limit to only 1 set a weekend (same thing as running RS4,Dunlop,Falkens)

 

Tire eating track aside, 2 (dry)set allotment does nary a thing to prevent a team from running gummy, fast wearing rubber, a specific tire banishment could address the fake TW numbers.

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8 minutes ago, Team Infiniti said:

Tire eating track aside, 2 (dry)set allotment does nary a thing to prevent a team from running gummy, fast wearing rubber, a specific tire banishment could address the fake TW numbers.

I think specific prohibitions are fine. I don't think you want to go the spec route because it does remove one tuning dimension that teams should be able to pursue **within reason**.

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Would be all for a limit on the number of tires allowed for a weekend.  12 tires, allows 2 sets for dry and one for wet. (already suggested by someone, just repeating)   Tech marks them at the beginning of the weekend and they get verified in impound.    

 

Another idea I like is,  only allow 2 tires to be changed at pit stops, and if you stop only to change tires it has to be a 5 min stop as well.   Take away the benefit of many tires with time spent in the pits.

 

Limit tire size to some amount wider than original,  I think this one is too complicated.  

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, JDChristianson said:

Would be all for a limit on the number of tires allowed for a weekend.  12 tires, allows 2 sets for dry and one for wet. (already suggested by someone, just repeating)   Tech marks them at the beginning of the weekend and they get verified in impound.    

 

Another idea I like is,  only allow 2 tires to be changed at pit stops, and if you stop only to change tires it has to be a 5 min stop as well.   Take away the benefit of many tires with time spent in the pits.

 

Limit tire size to some amount wider than original,  I think this one is too complicated.  

 

 

 

 

So how many teams change DURING the race because they are done? Is it a problem?

 

I have never seen that I think (except for a flat or maybe started on all seasons or something)

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6 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

So how many teams change DURING the race because they are done? Is it a problem?

 

I have never seen that I think (except for a flat or maybe started on all seasons or something)

sounds like GBU was.   Sahlens does.   I've seen others when we have worked races.   Its not that many really.  To me that makes it a good idea as it puts the brakes on teams using 2 or more sets per day and has no impact on most.

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I  guess I mistakenly thought that champcar was a low budget entry level racing series,95 % of all racetracks in america have a spec tire rule there are many local tracks that can get a 100 cars a night and have no problems,do the track owners want to do that no but they know if they dont they will end up with 25 cars a night so they have to to stay in business.Lucky dog is a perfect example Roy probably figures he can finish 3rd or 4rth at ra  but if potenzas are 2 or 3 seconds faster he can win so his tire bill went from 800 a weekend to 2000 a weekend and maybe he can afford it, but in my case maybe  I can finish 5 to 7 if I am lucky but with potenzas i can maybe get on the podium but with my 3000lb plus  camaro i will use 12 tires and my cost went from 800 to 2400 for tires now instead of going to 2 to three races a year I can only go to one and I have brought this topic up to champcar before and they have told me unequivocally they dont care.So my blue collar team which consists of two mechanics and a janitor and a sub 10,000 camaro can then only afford to go to one race and be competitive.And for those who dont think this is a issue are either ignorant or are not cognoscente of this reality which will only get worse as champcar is getting more competitive every year 

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2 hours ago, JDChristianson said:

 

Another idea I like is,  only allow 2 tires to be changed at pit stops, and if you stop only to change tires it has to be a 5 min stop as well.   Take away the benefit of many tires with time spent in the pits.

It sounds like there is a lot of outrage against changing a full set of tires in a stop, but much less outrage over changing 2 tires? This idea would address that and enforcement is easy (pit neighbors watching your stop).

 

Also, regardless of 5 minutes or not, no team is going to make an extra stop for a tire change unless it’s a one-off flat or something. 

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9 minutes ago, enginerd said:

It sounds like there is a lot of outrage against changing a full set of tires in a stop, but much less outrage over changing 2 tires. This idea would address that and enforcement is easy (pit neighbors watching your stop).

 

Also, regardless of 5 minutes or not, no team is going to make an extra stop for a tire change unless it’s a one-off flat or something. 

 

Sometimes at Harris Hill races we have to rotate or add 2-4 new tires at a pit stop if we don't think we can make the next stint without cording the tires.  We do our best to avoid this because it's challening to accomplish in 5 minutes, but it's better than getting towed in later with a flat or worse...getting into an accident because of a blown or flat tire.

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I'm really against outright bans on certain tires or limiting tire sizes. Putting some sort of soft limit on tire usage is a more palatable, but even then, I think the lighter RWD cars that are easy on tires get a bit of an advantage. 

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3 hours ago, LuckyKid said:

We've never had wind tunnel testing done.  I called and got prices over a year ago, but that is it.  I do however have a group on facebook and we share information.  I also bought some $35 Manometers off amazon to do pressure testing.  I also watch videos and read prolifically to use windtunnel tested concepts (vents with gurney flaps) on our car.

I am all for simple as far as the tire rules.

I'd support either tire model bans, or tire quantity bans.  

I will share my test data since no one else has shared data with the miata teams on the 245/40-15 RS4 vs. the 205/50-15.  To my knowledge no NA/NB miata team has tested a 245/40-17 so that is new as well and I will share that with Miata teams.

I thought you did wind tunnel testing and was jealous.

 

BTW- at Sonoma the ergolab miata we ran 205 -15" RE71R one day and 225 -15" RS4 the next. The RE71R was 1.0-1.5 faster. They do not have a larger size in 15" that we wanted, as I betting you found out. We figured if we could get a 235-245 size re71r it would be like 3 seconds a lap faster and say lower in the temp range and last a day.

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3 hours ago, petawawarace said:

10hrs or less, must use 6 or less tires

20hrs or less, must use 10 or less tires 

+20hrs, must use less than 12 tires.  
 

Double 10s on the same weekend would be 20hrs.

 

Either record the serial numbers (if tires have them) or find a way to uniquely identify them when you go through tech.  Obviously there are some challenges with it, but its really the best solution.

 

If you get 2 flats, your likely not going to be in contention anyway. But, it would not be hard to have an exception if you have several flats.

I think that is the main issue. 4 tires for a week or two weekend versus 12 for a weekend. Tire costs go from $700 (or $350) a race to $2100 a race. With my team I would have to have each driver pay about $400-500 more per person to cover it. We can not afford that unless we do less races, which I do not want to do. The teams that spend on tires can save a good 1-4 seconds a lap based on money alone.

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1 hour ago, turbogrill said:

 

So how many teams change DURING the race because they are done? Is it a problem?

 

I have never seen that I think (except for a flat or maybe started on all seasons or something)

There are a lot more than you think. When I was looking at podium and fast cars I see a lot of the re71r and other fast tires. They might make it a day, but the tires are done after it so they at least run 8 a weekend.

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1 hour ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

There are a lot more than you think. When I was looking at podium and fast cars I see a lot of the re71r and other fast tires. They might make it a day, but the tires are done after it so they at least run 8 a weekend.

 

Do you think 8 tires a weekend is too much?

What if people being 8 used tires....

 

The limit on number of tires only works if people being fresh tires, we try to reuse tires.

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58 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

 

Do you think 8 tires a weekend is too much?

What if people being 8 used tires....

 

The limit tires only works if people being fresh tires, we try to reuse tires.

 

Not true, it's your choice to bring used tires (we do the same). You are already choosing to be at a disadvantage because you could choose to bring 2 (or more) fresh sets to every race weekend. You can still choose to run used tires under a tire limit rule, it's just the extent of your disadvantage would be reduced because you and your used tires won't be running against teams that are changing tires at every stint.

 

Of all the options being kicked around here, a limit on tire changes makes the most sense. It is the easiest for Champcar and competitors to monitor while doing a good (if not perfect) job of leveling the playing field. We don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater here guys with size and type limits, we just need to reign things in a little. I would propose something like this:

 

Tire changes: Teams are allowed 1 replacement tire for every 2 hours of race duration. An 8 hour race allows for replacement of up to 4 tires, a 10 hour race allows for replacement of up to 5 tires, etc.  Any or all of the allowable number of replacement tires may be replaced at any time during a race, provided a team does not exceed the maximum number of replacements . Punctured tires may be replaced at any time without penalty.  EDIT - After some more thought I would also add the following: "Tires that "puncture" because they are run down to the cords may not be replaced without penalty - it is your job to manage your tires."

 

I assume something like this would not have a major impact on the way most teams run races, and if anyone complains that they can't make a set of RE71s last 5 hours, well, they are part of the problem.

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2 minutes ago, gavro said:

 

Not true, it's your choice to bring used tires (we do the same). You are already choosing to be at a disadvantage

 

Well you choose to be at an disadvantage if you decide to run RS4 instead if re71r. 

 

4set of new RS4                             = $800

4set of new RE71 + 2 used re71r  = $1200

 

That is $400 extra for the weekend, not a huge difference. 

 

I know some teams start on old RS4 but I wouldn't, who knows what state they are in...

 

Hmm.....

 

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