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1 minute ago, turbogrill said:

 

Well you choose to be at an disadvantage if you decide to run RS4 instead if re71r. 

 

4set of new RS4                             = $800

4set of new RE71 + 2 used re71r  = $1200

 

That is $400 extra for the weekend, not a huge difference. 

 

I know some teams start on old RS4 but I wouldn't, who knows what state they are in...

 

Hmm.....

 

 

EXACTLY! Teams are already making these choices. The teams that run RS4 instead of re71r will probably continue do so. The only time everyone gets excited about tires is when someone spends insane amounts of money and changes tires at every stop.

 

The goal here shouldn't be to make everyone spend the same amount of money on tires in a given weekend. The goal should be to put a ceiling on how much more a well-funded team can spend.

 

As for running old tires, I know exactly what state they are in because I ran them when new in the prior race and then stored them in my cool, dark crawl space.

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27 minutes ago, gavro said:

 

 

The goal here shouldn't be to make everyone spend the same amount of money on tires in a given weekend. The goal should be to put a ceiling on how much more a well-funded team can spend.

 

 

 

So what is that ceiling? Seems like some people think it's 4 and some people think it's 12.

 

Last race we did 8 new tires, that sucked a little. 


If the rule is max 12 tires a weekend then I am totally fine with that, not sure it's going to help. Might just be annoying for someone that has a bad weekend

 

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Desired to had some thoughts on the Tire Discussion

The thoughts are meant to add context and background to the discussion points brought forward in this post to date

 

Marking Tires / Quantity to Use:

- Having been in Pro Series, where this was done, it is a significant amount of staffing required to execute,

- And even then is very difficult to police

 

Limiting # of tires in a weekend

- For our team (and many other teams), we sometimes start on used tires to save money

- Limiting the tires used in a weekend will drive up our costs, not down, as now we have to go into the weekend with brand new tires, and have ZERO used tires as part of our rotation

 

Limiting # of tires changed at a time on a pit stop

- This actually will work in the opposite direction of saving money

- Teams that can do a quicker pit stop will make out, thus making the gap bigger not less between teams

- And again limiting tire changes means starting on 1/2 used tires is a disadvantage if I then have to change on a pit stop

 

Tire Cost 

- While there are references to the Total cost of set

- The actual discussion to me should be on the increase in cost of a set 

- As an example, for our Mazda RX7, we run 225/15

- Options: Hankook $130, Toyo $150, Yokohama $189, BFG $195

- Thus for a race, the total cost from lowest to highest option is $260 for the day, or $65 per driver (4 drivers)

- I am not suggesting that $65 isn't more money for driver, I am just establishing what the total cost factor is here

 

Tire Cost factored in with Damages

- As a Team looks at the cost of $260 per race 

- The increased cost can easily be offset each race by the less car damage due to better control with grippier tires

- I know all might not agree, but 1 less hit per race can add up to $260 pretty easily

 

Sahlen's Tire Changes

- Although it has been referenced many times of the # of tire changes we had at the 2019 Nelson 24 hours, please allow some context here

- We changed tires every 4 hours

- This was the very 1st race we ran Bridgestones in ChampCar

- We pre-shaved our Bridgestones, thinking they would chunk

- They in fact did not chunk

- As a side light, Nelson is very abrasive on tires, with the MostMint Racing Saturn even changing tires every 6-8 hours

- At Sebring NYE, we came with unshaved Bridgestones, and ran almost the entire 2 days on one set each.

- And as reference, when it does appear that we have lots of tires at the track, remember that as an example, at the upcoming Pitt Race, we will have 3 Cars worth of tires there, and as well, we will have many used tires available in case of a flat with an hour to go in the race

 

Thanks for the opportunity to share thoughts in this forum

Will Nonnamaker

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There are obvious drawbacks that go with each idea.  
 

I do think that limiting the number of tires is the best way to do it, but there’s lots of logistical issues with that.  
 

I kind of like the idea of only being allowed to add 1 tire per stop. That would limit how many tires that you could realistically use in a weekend. This wouldn’t hurt guys who want to run used tires. It would limit the super soft tires almost as much too. It would be way easier to police and keep tabs on.  
 

The only thing that I would be careful about is that you can still rotate tires freely.  Don’t word it as only allowed 1 wheel off at a time like I saw in one rule.  If you want to lift the front and swap tires, that should be fine. But only 1 new (or used) added per stop.  

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42 minutes ago, Will Nonnamaker said:

Desired to had some thoughts on the Tire Discussion

The thoughts are meant to add context and background to the discussion points brought forward in this post to date

 

Marking Tires / Quantity to Use:

- Having been in Pro Series, where this was done, it is a significant amount of staffing required to execute,

- And even then is very difficult to police

 

Limiting # of tires in a weekend

- For our team (and many other teams), we sometimes start on used tires to save money

- Limiting the tires used in a weekend will drive up our costs, not down, as now we have to go into the weekend with brand new tires, and have ZERO used tires as part of our rotation

 

Limiting # of tires changed at a time on a pit stop

- This actually will work in the opposite direction of saving money

- Teams that can do a quicker pit stop will make out, thus making the gap bigger not less between teams

- And again limiting tire changes means starting on 1/2 used tires is a disadvantage if I then have to change on a pit stop

 

Tire Cost 

- While there are references to the Total cost of set

- The actual discussion to me should be on the increase in cost of a set 

- As an example, for our Mazda RX7, we run 225/15

- Options: Hankook $130, Toyo $150, Yokohama $189, BFG $195

- Thus for a race, the total cost from lowest to highest option is $260 for the day, or $65 per driver (4 drivers)

- I am not suggesting that $65 isn't more money for driver, I am just establishing what the total cost factor is here

 

Tire Cost factored in with Damages

- As a Team looks at the cost of $260 per race 

- The increased cost can easily be offset each race by the less car damage due to better control with grippier tires

- I know all might not agree, but 1 less hit per race can add up to $260 pretty easily

 

Sahlen's Tire Changes

- Although it has been referenced many times of the # of tire changes we had at the 2019 Nelson 24 hours, please allow some context here

- We changed tires every 4 hours

- This was the very 1st race we ran Bridgestones in ChampCar

- We pre-shaved our Bridgestones, thinking they would chunk

- They in fact did not chunk

- As a side light, Nelson is very abrasive on tires, with the MostMint Racing Saturn even changing tires every 6-8 hours

- At Sebring NYE, we came with unshaved Bridgestones, and ran almost the entire 2 days on one set each.

- And as reference, when it does appear that we have lots of tires at the track, remember that as an example, at the upcoming Pitt Race, we will have 3 Cars worth of tires there, and as well, we will have many used tires available in case of a flat with an hour to go in the race

 

Thanks for the opportunity to share thoughts in this forum

Will Nonnamaker

As someone who runs soft tires and has been at races with you, I have to wonder why you change all 4 when you make a tire change stop. Generally the front left wears out 1-2 stints before either the back left or front right, and the right rear lasts 2-3 times as long as the front left. You would take a lot less heat for tires if you only changed them when they get low, rather than sending the whole show out there to change 3 tires that have a ton of life remaining. I hope you aren’t throwing out those tires that have 50%+ tread remaining, and if you are, you can throw them out into my trailer next time we’re at the same track!

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Just as a point of reference....  I know at least 2 teams that have won races with rs4 and only changed 1 or 2 tires.

 

To give a specific case, Tyler just won at Indy with rs4 and only changed 1 because they flat spotted the fark out of it...

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3 hours ago, gavro said:

 

Not true, it's your choice to bring used tires (we do the same). You are already choosing to be at a disadvantage because you could choose to bring 2 (or more) fresh sets to every race weekend. You can still choose to run used tires under a tire limit rule, it's just the extent of your disadvantage would be reduced because you and your used tires won't be running against teams that are changing tires at every stint.

 

Of all the options being kicked around here, a limit on tire changes makes the most sense. It is the easiest for Champcar and competitors to monitor while doing a good (if not perfect) job of leveling the playing field. We don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater here guys with size and type limits, we just need to reign things in a little. I would propose something like this:

 

Tire changes: Teams are allowed 1 replacement tire for every 2 hours of race duration. An 8 hour race allows for replacement of up to 4 tires, a 10 hour race allows for replacement of up to 5 tires, etc.  Any or all of the allowable number of replacement tires may be replaced at any time during a race, provided a team does not exceed the maximum number of replacements . Punctured tires may be replaced at any time without penalty.  EDIT - After some more thought I would also add the following: "Tires that "puncture" because they are run down to the cords may not be replaced without penalty - it is your job to manage your tires."

 

I assume something like this would not have a major impact on the way most teams run races, and if anyone complains that they can't make a set of RE71s last 5 hours, well, they are part of the problem.

I do not think that has any effect at all. The GBU changed 4 tires of the 10 hours at Indy and all 8 tires used that day were done. The next day the same thing, 4 tires changes and 8 total used. 16 tires used up over the weekend.

 

The other is in a 7-8 hour race a team will change the 2 rear or 2 left side halfway through. They will go through 6 a day or 12 a weekend.

 

This is still 12-16 tires used up a weekend versus 4 and kills tire costs.

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3 hours ago, turbogrill said:

 

Well you choose to be at an disadvantage if you decide to run RS4 instead if re71r. 

 

4set of new RS4                             = $800

4set of new RE71 + 2 used re71r  = $1200

 

That is $400 extra for the weekend, not a huge difference. 

 

I know some teams start on old RS4 but I wouldn't, who knows what state they are in...

 

Hmm.....

 

The RE71r only lasts one day from what I have seen. I do not know of a team able to run them for more than one day. Maybe there is one out there, but that has to be rare.

 

I use the RS4 for two races or three. I know of many teams that do the same to keep costs down.

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3 hours ago, turbogrill said:

 

Well you choose to be at an disadvantage if you decide to run RS4 instead if re71r. 

 

4set of new RS4                             = $800

4set of new RE71 + 2 used re71r  = $1200

 

That is $400 extra for the weekend, not a huge difference. 

 

I know some teams start on old RS4 but I wouldn't, who knows what state they are in...

 

Hmm.....

 

 

Your math is way off.

 

Many teams are going through as set of RE71R per day, or at the very least 6 in a weekend.

 

With RS4 and no flat spots, it's perfectly reasonable to get 2 full weekends out of a set of tires, and they still have enough meat for a test day or 3.

 

So instead it's $1200-$1600 for a weekend on RE71s and just $400-$500 per weekend on RS4s.  That's 200% increase in weekend tire costs.  In a fast car you just added $300 to each drivers share.  If you're running 3 races a year, on RS4, that's almost enough savings to add a 4th race to the calendar.

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How about just requiring that any tire that is run has a sidewall profile of 70 or greater.  It would be a very odd rule and I doubt that any tire company is going to create a super sticky tire with a sidewall that tall.  Once they do, the rule would have to be changed.  But it would be several years until a work-around was figured out.

 

Tall sidewalls would also take away the need to do much suspension work because the tires are going to stick and have no feel so it won't matter if the car has a ton of body roll and terrible suspension geometry.

 

Of course the cars would be complete dogs to drive, no one would enjoy it and all go run some other series.  But we'd control tire costs!

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4 hours ago, turbogrill said:

 

Well you choose to be at an disadvantage if you decide to run RS4 instead if re71r. 

 

4set of new RS4                             = $800

4set of new RE71 + 2 used re71r  = $1200

 

That is $400 extra for the weekend, not a huge difference. 

 

I know some teams start on old RS4 but I wouldn't, who knows what state they are in...

 

Hmm.....

 

Nope, as Bio and huggy have stated, one set of rs4 will run us 2-3 races

1 hour ago, SonsOfIrony said:

 

Your math is way off.

 

Many teams are going through as set of RE71R per day, or at the very least 6 in a weekend.

 

With RS4 and no flat spots, it's perfectly reasonable to get 2 full weekends out of a set of tires, and they still have enough meat for a test day or 3.

 

So instead it's $1200-$1600 for a weekend on RE71s and just $400-$500 per weekend on RS4s.  That's 200% increase in weekend tire costs.  In a fast car you just added $300 to each drivers share.  If you're running 3 races a year, on RS4, that's almost enough savings to add a 4th race to the calendar.

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Used to run RS3 and direzass on the old car, sometimes grip was just gone early in the race even if plenty of thread was left.

 

Decided to always start with fresh tires each race after that. All ready a few thousands in for the race, why not spend a few hundred a to make sure tires are good...

 

Agree that it's insane if teams spend $5000 a race on tires and that makes them 5s faster than everyone else. 

 

Also nothing stopping manufacturer to make an even faster tire than RE71r as 200tw. Imagine if all 4 wheels has to be replaced every stint, hopefully that will not happen. So maybe something needs to be done.

 

Again, is every winning car running RE71r or similar?

 

I think lots of the winning Miatas are running RS4? What about the fast E30s?

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On 9/16/2020 at 8:51 AM, red0 said:

 

When we won Road America in 2011 we stole general arctic ice snow tires (13 x 165s) off one of my teammates grandmothers car in case it snowed. It did snow, and we ran those tires, lol. 

spacer.png

 

I miss those days...

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19 hours ago, Black Magic said:

Hankook motorsports website pricing for LD and WRL would point to yes......

WRL pricing for set of 4 245/40R15 = 555.06

Cheaper on tire rack.

Way cheaper with a corporate account.

Our last sets we paid less than 450 per set.

 

 

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45 minutes ago, shutupracing said:

WRL pricing for set of 4 245/40R15 = 555.06

Cheaper on tire rack.

Way cheaper with a corporate account.

Our last sets we paid less than 450 per set.

 

 

 

We were 40% off TR but much bigger sizes and widths. 

 

Need to look into places here that can help with corporate pricing....

 

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6 minutes ago, Black Magic said:

 

We were 40% off TR but much bigger sizes and widths. 

 

Need to look into places here that can help with corporate pricing....

 

Right.

 

What was killing it for us is that the WRL program requires shipping. So the tires were "cheaper" but once shipping was factored in it killed it. Shipping was outrageous.

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16 minutes ago, shutupracing said:

Right.

 

What was killing it for us is that the WRL program requires shipping. So the tires were "cheaper" but once shipping was factored in it killed it. Shipping was outrageous.

 

Maybe the higher cost tire offset our shipping. Taxes included it was a great price for us. 

 

We run another car with 15's, will take your advice and look at TR for them. Thanks

 

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First get the wheel and tire sizing under control.  IMHO, they never should have been completely free.  Allow cars that come on wheels that are less 16" diameter move up to no more than 17" diameter.  Cap width at 7" for any application with a stock width of 7" or less.   Anything with a stock wheel diameter of 17" or greater must stay with stock diameter or smaller.  Any application with an OE width of 7" or more must use stock width wheels. 

 

For tires, anything with a stock width of 225 or less may run up to a 225 width tire.  Any car with a stock tire width of 225 or larger is limited to stock width + 10 mm.

 

If a limit to number of tires changed during a stop is applied, there needs to be some significant time factor to make it matter.  With our family crew, using a single cheap impact we could still do fuel and a pair of tires inside 5 minutes on Piggy our old Saab 900.  Make the time hit substantial, say a minute per tire in addition to the required 5 minutes for a fuel stop.  Oh, and push the tread wear requirement up another 200 points to take every increasing performance tread wear 200 tires off the table....

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On 9/16/2020 at 5:39 PM, turbogrill said:

Also, not sure if you have to run RE71r or Rival S to win.

 

I think I have being beaten many times by people on RS4s...just better drivers.

 

Curious what tires the podium cars at Indy ran.

We had the 2nd fastest lap on Saturday finishing 2nd overall, and 3rd fastest lap for the weekend.  We ran 225/45/15 RS4's. I've tried the bridgestones before, not happy with them as we corded them by hour 7.  I just want to set tire pressure and forget about it.

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2 hours ago, Final Turn Motorsports said:

We had the 2nd fastest lap on Saturday finishing 2nd overall, and 3rd fastest lap for the weekend.  We ran 225/45/15 RS4's. I've tried the bridgestones before, not happy with them as we corded them by hour 7.  I just want to set tire pressure and forget about it.

 

What car is it? 

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