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9 hours ago, oddcarnut said:

First get the wheel and tire sizing under control.  IMHO, they never should have been completely free.  Allow cars that come on wheels that are less 16" diameter move up to no more than 17" diameter.  Cap width at 7" for any application with a stock width of 7" or less.   Anything with a stock wheel diameter of 17" or greater must stay with stock diameter or smaller.  Any application with an OE width of 7" or more must use stock width wheels. 

 

For tires, anything with a stock width of 225 or less may run up to a 225 width tire.  Any car with a stock tire width of 225 or larger is limited to stock width + 10 mm.

 

If a limit to number of tires changed during a stop is applied, there needs to be some significant time factor to make it matter.  With our family crew, using a single cheap impact we could still do fuel and a pair of tires inside 5 minutes on Piggy our old Saab 900.  Make the time hit substantial, say a minute per tire in addition to the required 5 minutes for a fuel stop.  Oh, and push the tread wear requirement up another 200 points to take every increasing performance tread wear 200 tires off the table....

Unfortunately that would eliminate about 90% of the field and those numbers are very small. That might work with a small cars and some others, but most would not be able to do it. There is a big difference between a 255 RS4 that last two weekends and a 335 Rival 1.5S that lasts hours and cost 3x as much per tire.

 

I remember piggy from lemons 10+ years ago.

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The "hung up on winning a trophy" statement that comes out occasionally is really tiring.  What's the point of any undertaking in life if you don't want to compete with the best on an equal footing an

Why do we need a rule for this.  Can’t a phone call stop this?     Mike Chisek = MC Big Spender = BS   ring....ring...   BS  Hello MC  Hi, this is MC with

If dont want re71r in the series, just don't let it in the series.   I like the idea of a list of allowable tires.

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39 minutes ago, Final Turn Motorsports said:

1994 Miata engine swapped to B class.

I haven't seen your car but it sounds like it's not a $60k build but rather a more typical champcar build.

 

I assume you are a good team, sorted car and great drivers? Sounds like you could have won?

To me that is proof that you don't need a Porsche with 100 tires and a pro crew to win, or a loophole car.

 

Edited by turbogrill
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29 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

I assume you are a good team, sorted car and great drivers? Sounds like you could have won?

To me that is proof that you don't need a Porsche with 100 tires and a pro crew to win, or a loophole car.

 

The Porsche team left the series.  Even then they were still beatable, but people saw the writing on the wall with their tire strategies and it pushing the series a direction opposite of the vision/mission of CCES

GBU is unbeatable if they finish.  Its a loophole car, with some additional liberties.  Without those liberties still only another loophole car can beat them.  That is new and if it continues it will have a huge impact on the series.    

Its great that Final Turn Motorsports got second place on RS4s, same as many other teams podium or win on RS4s. I am a podium team that runs/ran RS4s was pushed to move to the hot tire and I am a domino that will surely impact other teams just like the teams before me impacted this decision.  What bugs me the most is that the hot tires are not assets like a part, or even an intangible asset like development, its a pure consumable that makes a big difference in performance.  

I am not sure how exactly the points system was dialed in as far as performance and some have a bigger impact than others, but we are at about 25 points per second with our final points.   Adding hot tires is like getting a "free" 25 to 50 points by increasing our tire budget 4-5x every weekend.  

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22 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

The Porsche team left the series.  Even then they were still beatable, but people saw the writing on the wall with their tire strategies and it pushing the series a direction opposite of the vision/mission of CCES

GBU is unbeatable if they finish.  Its a loophole car, with some additional liberties.  Without those liberties still only another loophole car can beat them.  That is new and if it continues it will have a huge impact on the series.    

Its great that Final Turn Motorsports got second place on RS4s, same as many other teams podium or win on RS4s. I am a podium team that runs/ran RS4s was pushed to move to the hot tire and I am a domino that will surely impact other teams just like the teams before me impacted this decision.  What bugs me the most is that the hot tires are not assets like a part, or even an intangible asset like development, its a pure consumable that makes a big difference in performance.  

I am not sure how exactly the points system was dialed in as far as performance and some have a bigger impact than others, but we are at about 25 points per second with our final points.   Adding hot tires is like getting a "free" 25 to 50 points by increasing our tire budget 4-5x every weekend.  

Sounds as if you want to run off another team from the series.  Many cars can win in this series.  The Corvette on a smaller track would be another story.   When you guys get over how many tyres someone uses you can get the bigger than yours  trailers & motorhomes outlawed.

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9 minutes ago, turbogrill said:

5x...that is a lot!

 

Do you start your race weekend on old RS4s and keeping them thru the weekend?

 

Either way, that number could in theory be 10x if a manufacturer did a crazy cheaty 200tw tires.

 

We run 3-4 race weekends on a set of RS4s.

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For reference, how AER avoids this issue:

Quote

5.8. Jacking of the car using any method is strictly prohibited in the hot pits. Any work that requires the car to be “in the air” must be completed in paddock.

 Some argue this would result in cars speeding in the paddock, but isn't that already policed or easier to police than the number of tires a team is using?

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17 minutes ago, DEE DEE said:

Sounds as if you want to run off another team from the series.  Many cars can win in this series.  The Corvette on a smaller track would be another story.   When you guys get over how many tyres someone uses you can get the bigger than yours  trailers & motorhomes outlawed.

The VPI needs increased.  The points need to be accounted for, and things that I can't do per the rules, they also shouldn't be able to do.

I don't think GBU is good for CCES, and I think that same argument can be made for PartsBadger, as well as not being in the spirit of the series.  The goal is be the easiest and least expensive route for people to start road racing and we increase the budgets and raise the stress level for everyone on track.  

One of the reasons we decided to share everything was to add value back into the series and help other teams and in particular help the miata teams.  Teams like GBU and all the value the COULD offer being silent is a jerk move in my opinion.  They know how to run fast american iron they should be openly sharing setup data, information on how to keep it reliable, etc.

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2 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

The VPI needs increased.  The points need to be accounted for, and things that I can't do per the rules, they also shouldn't be able to do.

 

Exactly this 

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1 hour ago, turbogrill said:

I haven't seen your car but it sounds like it's not a $60k build but rather a more typical champcar build.

 

I assume you are a good team, sorted car and great drivers? Sounds like you could have won?

To me that is proof that you don't need a Porsche with 100 tires and a pro crew to win, or a loophole car.

 

It is about a 20-25K build as we also built an ecotec miata. You can do it cheaper with a junkyard motor to keep it cheap, but his is not a cheap build and done correctly.

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9 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

The VPI needs increased.  The points need to be accounted for, and things that I can't do per the rules, they also shouldn't be able to do.

 

 

I do not think it will change all that much and here is why.

The have a lot of fiberglass. If you use stock and repurpose for fender flares you saved 50 points. If you do just a cam/valvetrain for 50 points and tb 25 you do not have to do heads at 100.  You can take the heads and have extensive porting, CNC porting if you like, and make similar hp. That is 150 points off that the vpi could be raised and still have the same result and domination. The VPI increase will do nothing unless we make it so high they automatically go to EC with any mods and we know the stock C3 is not good so that does not make sense.

 

The only way to limit the speed of a car like is to not limit the speed they have, but to give them laps to make up if they choose to do so. They should get laps for the tires based on brand and/or sizing and to limit maximum whp. If you limited them to 300rwhp, I do not see anyone needing more than that in our series, then it would work. Simple and done.  

 

They should be able to run the car as it, but they should have about 7-9 laps in an 7 hour race. They were lapping the field every 45 minutes when under green at Indy and Indy had fast cars and experienced teams there. If we add up all the items and materials on the car I would think they could get 30-50 points on top of the 500 they have. Then add in points for the tires and have them dial back the power and we have a car that is at the pointy end that has a chance of winning, but not a guarantee.

 

The negative is that a lot of teams run the re71r or other fast tires so they will not want to say that it would be a good idea to make that laps as they would get laps themselves. I am running RE71R at PIRC so me proposing this will hurt me also and if I choose to keep on running them and needed to get laps for it then I would gladly take the laps. It would make me run RS4 tires though I bet as the gain and benefit would not be worth it then. Today, a zero point advantage of 2-4 seconds is an advantage that should not be overlooked. For crying out loud we point for reliability items like an accusump, that does not add speed at all, but we do not point for costly tires. That does not make any sense to me at all.

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On 9/16/2020 at 9:23 AM, red0 said:


You should have seen the weight reduction and materials used before the 60% rule and fixed material points. 

This was our response to Biohazard running 2:48s at Road America back in 2012 on Dunlops. Only went 2:53's but that isn't bad for 135whp on the harder tires of the day. 

oSjHgn1h0rPsnZcE0EkaAtFI6YbpQ_6CIIupfSdJ3LzAfyicmEoSOXhD5L2rdy0HFRCUIqOazf7oV9WX2nKI4m4vkV2JtbSW6Rp9X0NBuggeljZshDx3U683uEYvpX5uv-mfn-J0ImVg5I-D7wLmUKHv_GBtt5d_BXjVt05aeqmWIQaUOxkwU3Xzj6DQW5iBh3YqagGIJvR3FkXoj_RCwPhV4X6j1DdffrdNqEc44xQ9nusbx5vPC7fQPX56JssVAZTw6g38QrEXpXQZak7-sgZnGRY-W7tdYw9QOi2EDrC0uGIonKJpxqB6mY4ilggbHfHSw_R5FrXXDCd9asL8lsr0ZWPwABbensjgKORMDjpkr_8BL7kCQ0uFZuQEam2k3kyqpEvH1F5Z1iezq8B3NqoLqPyZ_s4mGPaQd2sM6v4PrkRofZ8If4YwPeUT5Coo7TXAd7QRpKsrMHcKfG2zKSTOoZ0oW8wxbNultAi27ndkgCQ_AWP7-Zo01X9kJlJQ8GNWPfHslFzCDQpBRHcy13rH_T5sANH8cJHE12vj01OGN_K4yje3auDSXt0Qy928EAab2BeT3krwl5jqyT7Hq1bhf06VwiZe56LAHtsFObCdnvfRs02z-CJAYRCFtbECdEs7uEuusE7wuZioKc51axy42wt3AM7_rcSbZc5NJBImSnsHss-9MisppQ8JNQ=w640-h853-no?authuser=0

Holy Rollers - Team Biography and Pictures - TireRack.com ChampCar  Endurance Series

 

Hey... i know the guy that took that photo!

 

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6 hours ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

 

I do not think it will change all that much and here is why.

The have a lot of fiberglass. If you use stock and repurpose for fender flares you saved 50 points. If you do just a cam/valvetrain for 50 points and tb 25 you do not have to do heads at 100.  You can take the heads and have extensive porting, CNC porting if you like, and make similar hp. That is 150 points off that the vpi could be raised and still have the same result and domination. The VPI increase will do nothing unless we make it so high they automatically go to EC with any mods and we know the stock C3 is not good so that does not make sense.

 

The only way to limit the speed of a car like is to not limit the speed they have, but to give them laps to make up if they choose to do so. They should get laps for the tires based on brand and/or sizing and to limit maximum whp. If you limited them to 300rwhp, I do not see anyone needing more than that in our series, then it would work. Simple and done.  

 

They should be able to run the car as it, but they should have about 7-9 laps in an 7 hour race. They were lapping the field every 45 minutes when under green at Indy and Indy had fast cars and experienced teams there. If we add up all the items and materials on the car I would think they could get 30-50 points on top of the 500 they have. Then add in points for the tires and have them dial back the power and we have a car that is at the pointy end that has a chance of winning, but not a guarantee.

 

The negative is that a lot of teams run the re71r or other fast tires so they will not want to say that it would be a good idea to make that laps as they would get laps themselves. I am running RE71R at PIRC so me proposing this will hurt me also and if I choose to keep on running them and needed to get laps for it then I would gladly take the laps. It would make me run RS4 tires though I bet as the gain and benefit would not be worth it then. Today, a zero point advantage of 2-4 seconds is an advantage that should not be overlooked. For crying out loud we point for reliability items like an accusump, that does not add speed at all, but we do not point for costly tires. That does not make any sense to me at all.

You’re not going to take stock cast iron heads (I think that’s what the engine has stock) and port them to be on the same level as their aftermarket aluminium heads. The weight savings alone would make a measurable difference in lap times. I also think it’s absurd to assume that a top tier team (but not a LeMans level team) should be assumed to do this when setting a VPI, many of our “top tier teams” use unopened engines!

 

Therefore a VPI change to make them choose between heads and some other mod on the car would slow them down. 

Edited by enginerd
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So.. I only read about 3 pages of this thread before giving up.  A couple of notes:

Never has the BoD considered TireRack's involvement in our series when deciding tire rules.  As a matter of fact, we probably should be thinking about that if we have to revise our rules.  Thanks for reminding us.  

A single limit max size doesn't really work for me.  Rules must scale across all models and if you put a tire size limit (say a 305 width) then you are penalizing cars that start with larger tires more so than those on the smaller side of things.  If you're going to limit tire sizes I'd be more apt to support something based off a percentage over stock size.  20% over stock as listed at TireRack.com maybe?

Treadwear numbers are BS.  We all know that, but that's about the only metric readily available.

Eliminating specific tires brands/styles?  That works great today.  But what happens when Falken comes out with their new super fast Tunaslapper tires next year?  Also, who's going to provide the metrics on each and every tire available?

Limit the number of tires available in the hot pits?  Half the teams up and down pitroad keep 4 tires in the pits just to strap down their e-z ups.  Now you're telling me I have to carry spare tires AND weights in my trailer?  Do you know how many tire trailers Doc is going to blow if he adds more weight to his load?

Limit the number of tires you can run during a race / penalize a team that changes X number of tires during a race?  OK, so I'm barreling into a corner and get spun by Troy.  Troy's caused me to flatspot 4 tires because I locked the car down trying not to hit the wall.  Not my fault, but I'm taking the penalty?  Or what if Troy spins in front of me and I lock it down so I don't t-bone him in the door?  You're going to penalize me for that too?  (By the way, I just like picking on Troy)

Limiting the number of tires changed during a pit stop?  Who's going to police this, seriously.  Most of our workers on pit road are volunteers who don't understand our rules to the full extent most of our racers do.  They're job is to make sure pit road is safe, not to affect the competition itself.  Letting a volunteer call a penalty on pit road is something even I wouldn't do, and I sit on the BoD.  That's race controls job and they can't monitor every pit stop for tire changes.  And the suggestion we self police is also crazy.  Troy wrecked me out last race and I have an axe to grind.  I'm definitely going to call up to race control and tell them I saw Troy change two tires last pit stop when in fact Troy changed one tire and rotated a second to another corner.  Who's going to stop me?  Who's watching to see if its Troy or I telling the truth?
 

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7 minutes ago, riche30 said:

Eliminating specific tires brands/styles?  That works great today.  But what happens when Falken comes out with their new super fast Tunaslapper tires next year?  Also, who's going to provide the metrics on each and every tire available?
 

There are multiple sources for this information(TireRack, GRM), in addition to the experience of the TAC and competitors. 
 

Considering that a proper rule banning the high wear and extraordinarily fast tires would save the members the hundred(s) of thousands of dollars per year while bringing the field closer together I believe this warrants serious consideration and that even some volunteer testing or group data gathering could be used.  

Alternatively, you could 'let in" tires to an approved list and there could be petitions to add in tires as more data becomes available.  

There is a significant value proposition for this rule today but whats more, this WILL become a much bigger issue moving forward and R3R, and GBU are just the canaries.  Every decision should go back to the vision/mission.  Hot tires are hurting the goals of the series.

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34 minutes ago, LuckyKid said:

There are multiple sources for this information(TireRack, GRM), in addition to the experience of the TAC and competitors. 
 

Considering that a proper rule banning the high wear and extraordinarily fast tires would save the members the hundred(s) of thousands of dollars per year while bringing the field closer together I believe this warrants serious consideration and that even some volunteer testing or group data gathering could be used.  

Alternatively, you could 'let in" tires to an approved list and there could be petitions to add in tires as more data becomes available.  

There is a significant value proposition for this rule today but whats more, this WILL become a much bigger issue moving forward and R3R, and GBU are just the canaries.  Every decision should go back to the vision/mission.  Hot tires are hurting the goals of the series.

I don’t remember R3R ever running through tires like this... maybe I’m remembering wrong. It seems like people are lumping R3R in with Sahlen / GBU because they were professional and had mechanics. They were not that fast and I did not consider them a problem at any race we were at with them. I was within a second of their best car at Indy (which had illegal parts) and I’m not even our best driver.
 

The issue with R3R was cheater parts and they chose to leave the series instead of bringing the cars into compliance.

 

And as an aside, I have loved racing against Sahlen, they drive well and cars have always been legal, let’s make sure this doesn’t become a “pro team witch pursuit thing”.

Edited by enginerd
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1 hour ago, riche30 said:

So.. I only read about 3 pages of this thread before giving up.  A couple of notes:

Never has the BoD considered TireRack's involvement in our series when deciding tire rules.  As a matter of fact, we probably should be thinking about that if we have to revise our rules.  Thanks for reminding us.  

A single limit max size doesn't really work for me.  Rules must scale across all models and if you put a tire size limit (say a 305 width) then you are penalizing cars that start with larger tires more so than those on the smaller side of things.  If you're going to limit tire sizes I'd be more apt to support something based off a percentage over stock size.  20% over stock as listed at TireRack.com maybe?

Treadwear numbers are BS.  We all know that, but that's about the only metric readily available.

Eliminating specific tires brands/styles?  That works great today.  But what happens when Falken comes out with their new super fast Tunaslapper tires next year?  Also, who's going to provide the metrics on each and every tire available?

Limit the number of tires available in the hot pits?  Half the teams up and down pitroad keep 4 tires in the pits just to strap down their e-z ups.  Now you're telling me I have to carry spare tires AND weights in my trailer?  Do you know how many tire trailers Doc is going to blow if he adds more weight to his load?

Limit the number of tires you can run during a race / penalize a team that changes X number of tires during a race?  OK, so I'm barreling into a corner and get spun by Troy.  Troy's caused me to flatspot 4 tires because I locked the car down trying not to hit the wall.  Not my fault, but I'm taking the penalty?  Or what if Troy spins in front of me and I lock it down so I don't t-bone him in the door?  You're going to penalize me for that too?  (By the way, I just like picking on Troy)

Limiting the number of tires changed during a pit stop?  Who's going to police this, seriously.  Most of our workers on pit road are volunteers who don't understand our rules to the full extent most of our racers do.  They're job is to make sure pit road is safe, not to affect the competition itself.  Letting a volunteer call a penalty on pit road is something even I wouldn't do, and I sit on the BoD.  That's race controls job and they can't monitor every pit stop for tire changes.  And the suggestion we self police is also crazy.  Troy wrecked me out last race and I have an axe to grind.  I'm definitely going to call up to race control and tell them I saw Troy change two tires last pit stop when in fact Troy changed one tire and rotated a second to another corner.  Who's going to stop me?  Who's watching to see if its Troy or I telling the truth?
 

OK then Rich. What is your take and your opinion on what should be done? You certainly did not like any of the suggestions given so what? 

 

Or do nothing at all and all is good? Your idea of limiting hp and hurting a 1/3 of the field did not fly so what should we do now? Just let them win every race? That will keep one team and loose teams that who wants to do that. I will personally look the the schedule of when they run and not enter those races. I have already talked to teams that are not going to go the Road America Championship based on if GBU show up.

 

You basically shot down every idea here and did not come up with any sort of solution.

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2 hours ago, riche30 said:

So.. I only read about 3 pages of this thread before giving up.  A couple of notes:

Never has the BoD considered TireRack's involvement in our series when deciding tire rules.  As a matter of fact, we probably should be thinking about that if we have to revise our rules.  Thanks for reminding us.  

A single limit max size doesn't really work for me.  Rules must scale across all models and if you put a tire size limit (say a 305 width) then you are penalizing cars that start with larger tires more so than those on the smaller side of things.  If you're going to limit tire sizes I'd be more apt to support something based off a percentage over stock size.  20% over stock as listed at TireRack.com maybe?

Treadwear numbers are BS.  We all know that, but that's about the only metric readily available.

Eliminating specific tires brands/styles?  That works great today.  But what happens when Falken comes out with their new super fast Tunaslapper tires next year?  Also, who's going to provide the metrics on each and every tire available?

Limit the number of tires available in the hot pits?  Half the teams up and down pitroad keep 4 tires in the pits just to strap down their e-z ups.  Now you're telling me I have to carry spare tires AND weights in my trailer?  Do you know how many tire trailers Doc is going to blow if he adds more weight to his load?

Limit the number of tires you can run during a race / penalize a team that changes X number of tires during a race?  OK, so I'm barreling into a corner and get spun by Troy.  Troy's caused me to flatspot 4 tires because I locked the car down trying not to hit the wall.  Not my fault, but I'm taking the penalty?  Or what if Troy spins in front of me and I lock it down so I don't t-bone him in the door?  You're going to penalize me for that too?  (By the way, I just like picking on Troy)

Limiting the number of tires changed during a pit stop?  Who's going to police this, seriously.  Most of our workers on pit road are volunteers who don't understand our rules to the full extent most of our racers do.  They're job is to make sure pit road is safe, not to affect the competition itself.  Letting a volunteer call a penalty on pit road is something even I wouldn't do, and I sit on the BoD.  That's race controls job and they can't monitor every pit stop for tire changes.  And the suggestion we self police is also crazy.  Troy wrecked me out last race and I have an axe to grind.  I'm definitely going to call up to race control and tell them I saw Troy change two tires last pit stop when in fact Troy changed one tire and rotated a second to another corner.  Who's going to stop me?  Who's watching to see if its Troy or I telling the truth?
 

 

Spot on

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8 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

OK then Rich. What is your take and your opinion on what should be done? You certainly did not like any of the suggestions given so what? 

 

Or do nothing at all and all is good? Your idea of limiting hp and hurting a 1/3 of the field did not fly so what should we do now? Just let them win every race? That will keep one team and loose teams that who wants to do that. I will personally look the the schedule of when they run and not enter those races. I have already talked to teams that are not going to go the Road America Championship based on if GBU show up.

 

You basically shot down every idea here and did not come up with any sort of solution.

??

"If you're going to limit tire sizes I'd be more apt to support something based off a percentage over stock size.  20% over stock as listed at TireRack.com maybe?" -Rich

 

Would it be work to size every car? Sure. Tires went off the deep end when the tire covering rule was put in place. Go back to stock + some % and if you want to run flares to cover them then they have to be formed to the body or plastic/fiberglass ones. The rule in place now allows cars to look like "doodoo". 

 

 

 

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23 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

That will keep one team and loose teams that who wants to do that. I will personally look the the schedule of when they run and not enter those races. I have already talked to teams that are not going to go the Road America Championship based on if GBU show up.

 

I have a completely serious question based on that comment.  Are some people so hung up on winning a trophy that you won't even show up to a race and support the series if you don't think you have a chance of winning?

 

And my personal opinion on tires, which means less than jack sh!t, is that they are less of an issue than it's being made out to be.  If GBU and others want to run super sticky steam rollers that have to be replaced multiple times a race for a couple second advantage, then let them.  Even if you banned certain tires and widths, they can just take the widebody kit off and load it down with aero upgrades - and probably go even faster.  I still contend the screwed up VPI is the source of all this.

 

Out of curiosity, how did their Camaro ever do?  I've never heard much about it other than it was kind of cheaty and pretty fast.  You'd think if it was just special rulings, tires, and cubic dollars that make his cars fast, then that thing should have been a beast as well.

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38 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

Or do nothing at all and all is good? Your idea of limiting hp and hurting a 1/3 of the field did not fly so what should we do now?

That is incorrect. The presentation showed that 1/3 of cars from the very small sample (38 cars) would need to add weight or reduce HP. From that group, 6 would actually be eliminated because they would require too much ballast vs what was allowed in the proposal.

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41 minutes ago, MR2 Biohazard said:

OK then Rich. What is your take and your opinion on what should be done? You certainly did not like any of the suggestions given so what? 

 

Or do nothing at all and all is good? Your idea of limiting hp and hurting a 1/3 of the field did not fly so what should we do now? Just let them win every race? That will keep one team and loose teams that who wants to do that. I will personally look the the schedule of when they run and not enter those races. I have already talked to teams that are not going to go the Road America Championship based on if GBU show up.

 

You basically shot down every idea here and did not come up with any sort of solution.


Troy, I don't have all the answers to all the questions.  No one does.  I'm simply pointing out the issues with the proposals being suggested right now.  

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1 hour ago, enginerd said:


 

The issue with R3R was cheater parts and they chose to leave the series instead of bringing the cars into compliance.

 

That statement is not true

 

And as an aside, I have loved racing against Sahlen, they drive well and cars have always been legal, let’s make sure this doesn’t become a “pro team witch pursuit thing”.

Your first statement is not accurate  and  it already has become a witch thing  ( jealousy )

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